Here we go again

[A-R]

Anybody have any good ideas for Open Carry 2017 t-shirts?

Yes. Don't make nor wear one at all. Open carry is ultimate red herring and wedge issue within the pro-gun crowd. No one can really articulate a reason why it is so necessary or important (other than "because: rights" or "because other states have it".

I say kick open carry to the curb. The raving lunatics on the issue have poisoned it. Move on to the vastly more important battles like removing statutory gun-free zones and reducing 30.06 to a ticketable-only Class C Misdemeanor.

Unfortunately, if you do that, the aforementioned raving lunatics will not go away. Instead, they're going to continue poisoning the water for everyone, and the politicians in Austin (at least the entrenched ones with established power structures, reliable donors, and good-ol'-boy networks) will shy further and further away from the issue. Absent a -complete- leadership change, if it's not accomplished, and soon, it will -never- be, and the rabble-rousers will start affecting other, accompanying issues with their cheery dispositions.

There is one solution that will work. Pass Open Carry, and take the issue away from the idiots. After all, while their tactics are idiotic, they do have a point. Other states have OC, unlicensed OC, even unlicenced carry in general, and there's no blood in the streets, making the Texas ban on open carry a demonstrable malum prohibum law instead of malum in se, and therefore one that should not exist. The argument of "why should we allow this" should be dismissed, and replaced with the argument of "why is this not allowed?"

I understand what you're saying and hoped open carry would pass this time, merely to shut up the morons. But even if licensed OC passes that won't shut them up. They'll keep whining for unlicensed OC and Constitutional Carry. It will never be enough for these types until they can carry a full-auto M4 in their hands after being convicted of beating their wives.

I wouldn't mind having open carry, might even try it a few times if it passes. I'm just sick of wasting the political capital of gun rights movement in this one pet issue instigated by petulant children.

[StrangeBulge]

Anybody have any good ideas for Open Carry 2017 t-shirts?

Yes. Don't make nor wear one at all. Open carry is ultimate red herring and wedge issue within the pro-gun crowd. No one can really articulate a reason why it is so necessary or important (other than "because: rights" or "because other states have it".

I say kick open carry to the curb. The raving lunatics on the issue have poisoned it. Move on to the vastly more important battles like removing statutory gun-free zones and reducing 30.06 to a ticketable-only Class C Misdemeanor.

Unfortunately, if you do that, the aforementioned raving lunatics will not go away. Instead, they're going to continue poisoning the water for everyone, and the politicians in Austin (at least the entrenched ones with established power structures, reliable donors, and good-ol'-boy networks) will shy further and further away from the issue. Absent a -complete- leadership change, if it's not accomplished, and soon, it will -never- be, and the rabble-rousers will start affecting other, accompanying issues with their cheery dispositions.

There is one solution that will work. Pass Open Carry, and take the issue away from the idiots. After all, while their tactics are idiotic, they do have a point. Other states have OC, unlicensed OC, even unlicenced carry in general, and there's no blood in the streets, making the Texas ban on open carry a demonstrable malum prohibum law instead of malum in se, and therefore one that should not exist. The argument of "why should we allow this" should be dismissed, and replaced with the argument of "why is this not allowed?"

"Why is this not allowed" ... well because they need the wedge issues.

If all the 2nd amendment issues went away would you still give money to the NRA?

If all the wedge issues were settled, would you still bother to vote and keep "your guy" in office. From a certain point of view the more idiots the better.

[G.A. Heath]

Anybody have any good ideas for Open Carry 2017 t-shirts?

Yes. Don't make nor wear one at all. Open carry is ultimate red herring and wedge issue within the pro-gun crowd. No one can really articulate a reason why it is so necessary or important (other than "because: rights" or "because other states have it".

I say kick open carry to the curb. The raving lunatics on the issue have poisoned it. Move on to the vastly more important battles like removing statutory gun-free zones and reducing 30.06 to a ticketable-only Class C Misdemeanor.

Unfortunately, if you do that, the aforementioned raving lunatics will not go away. Instead, they're going to continue poisoning the water for everyone, and the politicians in Austin (at least the entrenched ones with established power structures, reliable donors, and good-ol'-boy networks) will shy further and further away from the issue. Absent a -complete- leadership change, if it's not accomplished, and soon, it will -never- be, and the rabble-rousers will start affecting other, accompanying issues with their cheery dispositions.

There is one solution that will work. Pass Open Carry, and take the issue away from the idiots. After all, while their tactics are idiotic, they do have a point. Other states have OC, unlicensed OC, even unlicenced carry in general, and there's no blood in the streets, making the Texas ban on open carry a demonstrable malum prohibum law instead of malum in se, and therefore one that should not exist. The argument of "why should we allow this" should be dismissed, and replaced with the argument of "why is this not allowed?"

"Why is this not allowed" ... well because they need the wedge issues.

If all the 2nd amendment issues went away would you still give money to the NRA?

If all the wedge issues were settled, would you still bother to vote and keep "your guy" in office. From a certain point of view the more idiots the better.

I'm going to let you in on a very open not-so-secret piece of information: The NRA doesn't exist to lobby, it lobbies so that it can do what it was founded for which is training people to shoot. After all if there are no guns rights there is no need for training.

Every group who claims that the NRA is a lobbying organisation first and foremost (this would be anti-gunners, NAGR, GOA, OCT, CATI, ect.) does so out of dishonesty and projection. CJ Grisham said to myself, Charles Cotton, and Alice Tripp that once open carry was passed he had no idea what he was going do (Goto http://gunrightsintexas.com/010" onclick="window.open(this.href);return false; and list for yourself) and that is the fallacy that our opponents want us to buy into. They want us to think that should we win then we are finished and there would be nothing left, the truth is the opposite. If all the issues and gun control suddenly went away we would have to fight the effort to re-implement it all over again. At one time there was virtually no gun control in the United States, and yet we have thousands of gun laws today. In essence your statement is absurd, and your statement about idiots implies that you consider the general public and/or NRA members to be idiots.

[JSThane]

Anybody have any good ideas for Open Carry 2017 t-shirts?

Yes. Don't make nor wear one at all. Open carry is ultimate red herring and wedge issue within the pro-gun crowd. No one can really articulate a reason why it is so necessary or important (other than "because: rights" or "because other states have it".

I say kick open carry to the curb. The raving lunatics on the issue have poisoned it. Move on to the vastly more important battles like removing statutory gun-free zones and reducing 30.06 to a ticketable-only Class C Misdemeanor.

Unfortunately, if you do that, the aforementioned raving lunatics will not go away. Instead, they're going to continue poisoning the water for everyone, and the politicians in Austin (at least the entrenched ones with established power structures, reliable donors, and good-ol'-boy networks) will shy further and further away from the issue. Absent a -complete- leadership change, if it's not accomplished, and soon, it will -never- be, and the rabble-rousers will start affecting other, accompanying issues with their cheery dispositions.

There is one solution that will work. Pass Open Carry, and take the issue away from the idiots. After all, while their tactics are idiotic, they do have a point. Other states have OC, unlicensed OC, even unlicenced carry in general, and there's no blood in the streets, making the Texas ban on open carry a demonstrable malum prohibum law instead of malum in se, and therefore one that should not exist. The argument of "why should we allow this" should be dismissed, and replaced with the argument of "why is this not allowed?"

"Why is this not allowed" ... well because they need the wedge issues.

If all the 2nd amendment issues went away would you still give money to the NRA?

If all the wedge issues were settled, would you still bother to vote and keep "your guy" in office. From a certain point of view the more idiots the better.

I'm going to let you in on a very open not-so-secret piece of information: The NRA doesn't exist to lobby, it lobbies so that it can do what it was founded for which is training people to shoot. After all if there are no guns rights there is no need for training.

Every group who claims that the NRA is a lobbying organisation first and foremost (this would be anti-gunners, NAGR, GOA, OCT, CATI, ect.) does so out of dishonesty and projection. CJ Grisham said to myself, Charles Cotton, and Alice Tripp that once open carry was passed he had no idea what he was going do (Goto http://gunrightsintexas.com/010" onclick="window.open(this.href);return false; and list for yourself) and that is the fallacy that our opponents want us to buy into. They want us to think that should we win then we are finished and there would be nothing left, the truth is the opposite. If all the issues and gun control suddenly went away we would have to fight the effort to re-implement it all over again. At one time there was virtually no gun control in the United States, and yet we have thousands of gun laws today. In essence your statement is absurd, and your statement about idiots implies that you consider the general public and/or NRA members to be idiots.

The NRA and the NRA-ILA are two specific, although closely related, entities. The NRA handles training, ranges, education, etc. The NRA-ILA handles lobbying.

[StrangeBulge]

Anybody have any good ideas for Open Carry 2017 t-shirts?

Yes. Don't make nor wear one at all. Open carry is ultimate red herring and wedge issue within the pro-gun crowd. No one can really articulate a reason why it is so necessary or important (other than "because: rights" or "because other states have it".

I say kick open carry to the curb. The raving lunatics on the issue have poisoned it. Move on to the vastly more important battles like removing statutory gun-free zones and reducing 30.06 to a ticketable-only Class C Misdemeanor.

Unfortunately, if you do that, the aforementioned raving lunatics will not go away. Instead, they're going to continue poisoning the water for everyone, and the politicians in Austin (at least the entrenched ones with established power structures, reliable donors, and good-ol'-boy networks) will shy further and further away from the issue. Absent a -complete- leadership change, if it's not accomplished, and soon, it will -never- be, and the rabble-rousers will start affecting other, accompanying issues with their cheery dispositions.

There is one solution that will work. Pass Open Carry, and take the issue away from the idiots. After all, while their tactics are idiotic, they do have a point. Other states have OC, unlicensed OC, even unlicenced carry in general, and there's no blood in the streets, making the Texas ban on open carry a demonstrable malum prohibum law instead of malum in se, and therefore one that should not exist. The argument of "why should we allow this" should be dismissed, and replaced with the argument of "why is this not allowed?"

"Why is this not allowed" ... well because they need the wedge issues.

If all the 2nd amendment issues went away would you still give money to the NRA?

If all the wedge issues were settled, would you still bother to vote and keep "your guy" in office. From a certain point of view the more idiots the better.

I'm going to let you in on a very open not-so-secret piece of information: The NRA doesn't exist to lobby, it lobbies so that it can do what it was founded for which is training people to shoot. After all if there are no guns rights there is no need for training.

Every group who claims that the NRA is a lobbying organisation first and foremost (this would be anti-gunners, NAGR, GOA, OCT, CATI, ect.) does so out of dishonesty and projection. CJ Grisham said to myself, Charles Cotton, and Alice Tripp that once open carry was passed he had no idea what he was going do (Goto http://gunrightsintexas.com/010" onclick="window.open(this.href);return false; and list for yourself) and that is the fallacy that our opponents want us to buy into. They want us to think that should we win then we are finished and there would be nothing left, the truth is the opposite. If all the issues and gun control suddenly went away we would have to fight the effort to re-implement it all over again. At one time there was virtually no gun control in the United States, and yet we have thousands of gun laws today. In essence your statement is absurd, and your statement about idiots implies that you consider the general public and/or NRA members to be idiots.

Oh I can hear it now ... NRA, various "Texas Republicans", all trying to take credit for Licensed Open Carry. Meanwhile every other gun related issue is pushed to the back burner ? Why because the "Texas Republicans", NRA, TSRA, look like a bunch of fools for letting the "Open Carry" issue fester for so long, that protests are getting time on the evening news. Now that the aforementioned "Texas Republicans", NRA, TSRA feel the sudden need to push the protestors to the side and lead us to a solution and the glorious passage of "Licensed Open Carry" ( which isn't exactly what all the protests were about, but close enough ) . Don't worry you'll get "licensed open carry" as the "Texas Republicans" have a majority in both houses! Go buy that flashy nickel, silver or even gold plated handgun of your dreams and really nice leather holster. Don't forget to keep your CHL up to date! They are out in front and have no one to blame if it doesn't pass.

I'm sure in two years the NRA, TSRA, and maybe even some "Texas Republicans" will drumming up support dollars for the same old issues that never pass, and the usual "idiots"; the kind that the NRA, TSRA and good ol " Texas Republicans" can't get enough of, you know the "useful" to the NRA, TSRA and "Texas Republicans" type of "idiots", the types that get ALL FIRED up over Campus Carry, School Carry, Carry where no CHL has legally carried before Carry and Professional Sporting Event Carry, and don't forget carry on government property!

Yes in two years, things will be back to normal once "Licensed Open Carry" is the norm, the donations will flow in, one maybe two of the usual issues will be targeted ... heck we might even have a new Tyrant from one of the american royal families in the oval office , and maybe the texas rebublicans won't have as many seats in the state houses ... think of all the donations! Hopefully there aren't any protesters wanting something absurd like maybe Constitutional Carry or even machine guns and other firearms manufactured and sold in Texas without regard to the federal NFA ( which the NRA so gloriously helped along in their own special way ) !

[G.A. Heath]

Anybody have any good ideas for Open Carry 2017 t-shirts?

Yes. Don't make nor wear one at all. Open carry is ultimate red herring and wedge issue within the pro-gun crowd. No one can really articulate a reason why it is so necessary or important (other than "because: rights" or "because other states have it".

I say kick open carry to the curb. The raving lunatics on the issue have poisoned it. Move on to the vastly more important battles like removing statutory gun-free zones and reducing 30.06 to a ticketable-only Class C Misdemeanor.

Unfortunately, if you do that, the aforementioned raving lunatics will not go away. Instead, they're going to continue poisoning the water for everyone, and the politicians in Austin (at least the entrenched ones with established power structures, reliable donors, and good-ol'-boy networks) will shy further and further away from the issue. Absent a -complete- leadership change, if it's not accomplished, and soon, it will -never- be, and the rabble-rousers will start affecting other, accompanying issues with their cheery dispositions.

There is one solution that will work. Pass Open Carry, and take the issue away from the idiots. After all, while their tactics are idiotic, they do have a point. Other states have OC, unlicensed OC, even unlicenced carry in general, and there's no blood in the streets, making the Texas ban on open carry a demonstrable malum prohibum law instead of malum in se, and therefore one that should not exist. The argument of "why should we allow this" should be dismissed, and replaced with the argument of "why is this not allowed?"

"Why is this not allowed" ... well because they need the wedge issues.

If all the 2nd amendment issues went away would you still give money to the NRA?

If all the wedge issues were settled, would you still bother to vote and keep "your guy" in office. From a certain point of view the more idiots the better.

I'm going to let you in on a very open not-so-secret piece of information: The NRA doesn't exist to lobby, it lobbies so that it can do what it was founded for which is training people to shoot. After all if there are no guns rights there is no need for training.

Every group who claims that the NRA is a lobbying organisation first and foremost (this would be anti-gunners, NAGR, GOA, OCT, CATI, ect.) does so out of dishonesty and projection. CJ Grisham said to myself, Charles Cotton, and Alice Tripp that once open carry was passed he had no idea what he was going do (Goto http://gunrightsintexas.com/010" onclick="window.open(this.href);return false; and list for yourself) and that is the fallacy that our opponents want us to buy into. They want us to think that should we win then we are finished and there would be nothing left, the truth is the opposite. If all the issues and gun control suddenly went away we would have to fight the effort to re-implement it all over again. At one time there was virtually no gun control in the United States, and yet we have thousands of gun laws today. In essence your statement is absurd, and your statement about idiots implies that you consider the general public and/or NRA members to be idiots.

The NRA and the NRA-ILA are two specific, although closely related, entities. The NRA handles training, ranges, education, etc. The NRA-ILA handles lobbying.

I am aware of that, but I am also aware that gun banners, OCT, ect. see both as a single entity and it's easier to explain thing to them without trying to completely destroy their world view. As for Strange Bulge, I suspect he's too deep in the OCT/CATI/OCTC belief system to have a conversation w/o calling people idiots and insult the NRA, TSRA, and their membership.

[JSThane]

I am well aware that if it's licensed open carry, the agitators will continue to agitate. In this case, the best solution is, yes, to give them what they want. Their methods suck, but they're -right-.

I take exception to the "wife beaters" comment. While I do not espouse the wild antics of OCT/OCTC, I am firmly in "their" camp with regards to the Constitutionality of ANY firearm regulations. Making ad-hominem attacks on the whole Constitutional Carry movement, based upon a couple of isolated, but loud-mouthed, individuals is using tactics straight out of Rules for Radicals, a logical fallacy, and a disservice and insult to the vast majority of the movement's members and supporters.

Besides, if someone's too dangerous to own or carry a gun, they're too dangerous to walk the streets, vote, buy gasoline, lighters, baseball bats, knives, fertilizer, weight sets, or any number of other tools, devices, or compounds that can be used to wreak mayhem and commit murder. If they're too dangerous to own a gun, they need to be locked up. Full stop.

I'll take incrementalism, so long as it's in favor of our civil and human rights. But I will never be satisfied with it until there are no more restrictions on our God-given rights, and honestly, Texas is lagging behind on this issue.

[gljjt]

Anybody have any good ideas for Open Carry 2017 t-shirts?

Yes. Don't make nor wear one at all. Open carry is ultimate red herring and wedge issue within the pro-gun crowd. No one can really articulate a reason why it is so necessary or important (other than "because: rights" or "because other states have it".

I say kick open carry to the curb. The raving lunatics on the issue have poisoned it. Move on to the vastly more important battles like removing statutory gun-free zones and reducing 30.06 to a ticketable-only Class C Misdemeanor.

Yep.

[gljjt]

Anyone who didn't see petty bickering coming from Patrick isn't paying attention. Jerry Patterson should be our Lt. Gov., but I only got to vote once

That's because you are not a Democrat.

[gljjt]

Anybody have any good ideas for Open Carry 2017 t-shirts?

Yes. Don't make nor wear one at all. Open carry is ultimate red herring and wedge issue within the pro-gun crowd. No one can really articulate a reason why it is so necessary or important (other than "because: rights" or "because other states have it".

I say kick open carry to the curb. The raving lunatics on the issue have poisoned it. Move on to the vastly more important battles like removing statutory gun-free zones and reducing 30.06 to a ticketable-only Class C Misdemeanor.

Unfortunately, if you do that, the aforementioned raving lunatics will not go away. Instead, they're going to continue poisoning the water for everyone, and the politicians in Austin (at least the entrenched ones with established power structures, reliable donors, and good-ol'-boy networks) will shy further and further away from the issue. Absent a -complete- leadership change, if it's not accomplished, and soon, it will -never- be, and the rabble-rousers will start affecting other, accompanying issues with their cheery dispositions.

There is one solution that will work. Pass Open Carry, and take the issue away from the idiots. After all, while their tactics are idiotic, they do have a point. Other states have OC, unlicensed OC, even unlicenced carry in general, and there's no blood in the streets, making the Texas ban on open carry a demonstrable malum prohibum law instead of malum in se, and therefore one that should not exist. The argument of "why should we allow this" should be dismissed, and replaced with the argument of "why is this not allowed?"

"Why is this not allowed" ... well because they need the wedge issues.

If all the 2nd amendment issues went away would you still give money to the NRA?

If all the wedge issues were settled, would you still bother to vote and keep "your guy" in office. From a certain point of view the more idiots the better.

I'm going to let you in on a very open not-so-secret piece of information: The NRA doesn't exist to lobby, it lobbies so that it can do what it was founded for which is training people to shoot. After all if there are no guns rights there is no need for training.

Every group who claims that the NRA is a lobbying organisation first and foremost (this would be anti-gunners, NAGR, GOA, OCT, CATI, ect.) does so out of dishonesty and projection. CJ Grisham said to myself, Charles Cotton, and Alice Tripp that once open carry was passed he had no idea what he was going do (Goto http://gunrightsintexas.com/010" onclick="window.open(this.href);return false; and list for yourself) and that is the fallacy that our opponents want us to buy into. They want us to think that should we win then we are finished and there would be nothing left, the truth is the opposite. If all the issues and gun control suddenly went away we would have to fight the effort to re-implement it all over again. At one time there was virtually no gun control in the United States, and yet we have thousands of gun laws today. In essence your statement is absurd, and your statement about idiots implies that you consider the general public and/or NRA members to be idiots.

The NRA and the NRA-ILA are two specific, although closely related, entities. The NRA handles training, ranges, education, etc. The NRA-ILA handles lobbying.

And there are very strict legal requirements differentiating the two. Lobbiests must register with the state. OCT clearly lobbies, by the State of Texas definition. I wonder if they are registered?

[TXBO]

I am well aware that if it's licensed open carry, the agitators will continue to agitate. In this case, the best solution is, yes, to give them what they want. Their methods suck, but they're -right-.

I take exception to the "wife beaters" comment. While I do not espouse the wild antics of OCT/OCTC, I am firmly in "their" camp with regards to the Constitutionality of ANY firearm regulations. Making ad-hominem attacks on the whole Constitutional Carry movement, based upon a couple of isolated, but loud-mouthed, individuals is using tactics straight out of Rules for Radicals, a logical fallacy, and a disservice and insult to the vast majority of the movement's members and supporters.

Besides, if someone's too dangerous to own or carry a gun, they're too dangerous to walk the streets, vote, buy gasoline, lighters, baseball bats, knives, fertilizer, weight sets, or any number of other tools, devices, or compounds that can be used to wreak mayhem and commit murder. If they're too dangerous to own a gun, they need to be locked up. Full stop.

I'll take incrementalism, so long as it's in favor of our civil and human rights. But I will never be satisfied with it until there are no more restrictions on our God-given rights, and honestly, Texas is lagging behind on this issue.

Many truths here.

[Bladed]

Anybody have any good ideas for Open Carry 2017 t-shirts?

Yes. Don't make nor wear one at all. Open carry is ultimate red herring and wedge issue within the pro-gun crowd. No one can really articulate a reason why it is so necessary or important (other than "because: rights" or "because other states have it".

I say kick open carry to the curb. The raving lunatics on the issue have poisoned it. Move on to the vastly more important battles like removing statutory gun-free zones and reducing 30.06 to a ticketable-only Class C Misdemeanor.

Unfortunately, if you do that, the aforementioned raving lunatics will not go away. Instead, they're going to continue poisoning the water for everyone, and the politicians in Austin (at least the entrenched ones with established power structures, reliable donors, and good-ol'-boy networks) will shy further and further away from the issue. Absent a -complete- leadership change, if it's not accomplished, and soon, it will -never- be, and the rabble-rousers will start affecting other, accompanying issues with their cheery dispositions.

There is one solution that will work. Pass Open Carry, and take the issue away from the idiots. After all, while their tactics are idiotic, they do have a point. Other states have OC, unlicensed OC, even unlicenced carry in general, and there's no blood in the streets, making the Texas ban on open carry a demonstrable malum prohibum law instead of malum in se, and therefore one that should not exist. The argument of "why should we allow this" should be dismissed, and replaced with the argument of "why is this not allowed?"

"Why is this not allowed" ... well because they need the wedge issues.

If all the 2nd amendment issues went away would you still give money to the NRA?

If all the wedge issues were settled, would you still bother to vote and keep "your guy" in office. From a certain point of view the more idiots the better.

I'm going to let you in on a very open not-so-secret piece of information: The NRA doesn't exist to lobby, it lobbies so that it can do what it was founded for which is training people to shoot. After all if there are no guns rights there is no need for training.

Every group who claims that the NRA is a lobbying organisation first and foremost (this would be anti-gunners, NAGR, GOA, OCT, CATI, ect.) does so out of dishonesty and projection. CJ Grisham said to myself, Charles Cotton, and Alice Tripp that once open carry was passed he had no idea what he was going do (Goto http://gunrightsintexas.com/010" onclick="window.open(this.href);return false; and list for yourself) and that is the fallacy that our opponents want us to buy into. They want us to think that should we win then we are finished and there would be nothing left, the truth is the opposite. If all the issues and gun control suddenly went away we would have to fight the effort to re-implement it all over again. At one time there was virtually no gun control in the United States, and yet we have thousands of gun laws today. In essence your statement is absurd, and your statement about idiots implies that you consider the general public and/or NRA members to be idiots.

The NRA and the NRA-ILA are two specific, although closely related, entities. The NRA handles training, ranges, education, etc. The NRA-ILA handles lobbying.

And there are very strict legal requirements differentiating the two. Lobbiests must register with the state. OCT clearly lobbies, by the State of Texas definition. I wonder if they are registered?

In what way does OCT meet the state's definition of a lobbyist?

[Ruark]

While we're talking about perceptions of the NRA, don't forget the very widespread perception that the NRA is just a marketing front for the gun manufacturers, and that the primary purpose of the NRA is to increase gun industry profits.