Open Carry impact

[A-R]

Chas, as usual, is spot on. I'll only add a caveat to this link I started be certain we're all on the same page using same language to describe same police action ... viewtopic.php?f=82&t=77279" onclick="window.open(this.href);return false;

Above referenced case law in Chas' post states an investigatory stop/detention is not authorized for merely MWAG (and no other factors). But a voluntary/consensual contact (see the give-n-take hypothetical scenario/script I wrote a few posts back) is not a stop/detention.

[mr1337]

Chas, as usual, is spot on. I'll only add a caveat to this link I started be certain we're all on the same page using same language to describe same police action ... viewtopic.php?f=82&t=77279" onclick="window.open(this.href);return false;

Above referenced case law in Chas' post states an investigatory stop/detention is not authorized for merely MWAG (and no other factors). But a voluntary/consensual contact (see the give-n-take hypothetical scenario/script I wrote a few posts back) is not a stop/detention.

I was also about to post US v. Black but Charles put it a lot more elegantly than I could have.

I would also agree that A-R's scenario wouldn't be an investigatory stop as long as the license holder consents to the stop and conversation. If the license holder asks to leave or does not consent to the demand to display ID, the officer should let the license holder go on his/her way. Only after a person asks to leave and is denied should it be considered a detention UNLESS there are other factors that would cause a reasonable person to believe he/she was not free to go. (Example: lights/sirens are activated on the police car, or several officers are surrounding the subject with guns/tasers drawn.

[Ruark]

Even the above mini-drama would be excessive for me in most cases. First of all, it's CLEARLY obvious what the LEO is up to. He didn't just pick you at random to chat about the weather. I'm TRYING to just enjoy a relaxing stroll down the sidewalk going shopping with my wife on a nice, sunny afternoon.

If the Dutton amendment doesn't stick, what's also entirely possible is something like the following:

911 caller: "PLEASE send somebody out here, there's an idiot walking around with a GUN! What is he doing? He's walking sort of funny, real slow, like he's looking for somebody! He caught me watching him and stared at me like he was going to shoot me! Please get somebody out here! He's scaring everybody to death! Please, hurry!"

LEO pulls up in cruiser, lights flashing. Two LEOs get out and approach you. "We got a complaint about somebody scaring people with a gun out here. First, though, for your and my protection, I'm taking your firearm while we investigate." (takes your guns, removes the clip, hands it to his partner, who takes it to the cruiser)

"Stand over here in front of my car. I need to see your CHL and your ID." (you hand them to him) "OK, stand right there for a minute." (he gets in his cruiser and runs your ID for verification, checks for outstanding warrants, and scribbling on a tablet)

A second cruiser drives up, lights flashing. Two more LEO's get out and stand nearby, hands on their weapons. By now, a crowd of 30-40 people has gathered nearby and across the street.

After several minutes, the LEO returns with your IDs, and starts asking you questions about why you're carrying it, where you work, what you're doing today, etc. Eventually you decline to answer and ask if you're being detained, and if you're free to go, etc. A third cruiser pulls up, lights flashing, and two more LEOs get out and stand nearby. The crowd has grown to about 50 people now. The LEO grudgingly states that you're free to go, and waves to his partner to return your firearm. The partner walks up and dumps the gun, the empty magazine, and a handful of bullets into your hands.

By now, everybody is crossing the street to avoid you, your wife is horribly embarrassed, and the nearby store owners aren't about to allow you in. Oh well, what the heck, your nice afternoon has been ruined, anyway.

[nightmare69]

Even the above mini-drama would be excessive for me in most cases. First of all, it's CLEARLY obvious what the LEO is up to. He didn't just pick you at random to chat about the weather. I'm TRYING to just enjoy a relaxing stroll down the sidewalk going shopping with my wife on a nice, sunny afternoon.

If the Dutton amendment doesn't stick, what's also entirely possible is something like the following:

911 caller: "PLEASE send somebody out here, there's an idiot walking around with a GUN! What is he doing? He's walking sort of funny, real slow, like he's looking for somebody! He caught me watching him and stared at me like he was going to shoot me! Please get somebody out here! He's scaring everybody to death! Please, hurry!"

LEO pulls up in cruiser, lights flashing. Two LEOs get out and approach you. "We got a complaint about somebody scaring people with a gun out here. First, though, for your and my protection, I'm taking your firearm while we investigate." (takes your guns, removes the clip, hands it to his partner, who takes it to the cruiser)

"Stand over here in front of my car. I need to see your CHL and your ID." (you hand them to him) "OK, stand right there for a minute." (he gets in his cruiser and runs your ID for verification, checks for outstanding warrants, and scribbling on a tablet)

A second cruiser drives up, lights flashing. Two more LEO's get out and stand nearby, hands on their weapons. By now, a crowd of 30-40 people has gathered nearby and across the street.

After several minutes, the LEO returns with your IDs, and starts asking you questions about why you're carrying it, where you work, what you're doing today, etc. Eventually you decline to answer and ask if you're being detained, and if you're free to go, etc. A third cruiser pulls up, lights flashing, and two more LEOs get out and stand nearby. The crowd has grown to about 50 people now. The LEO grudgingly states that you're free to go, and waves to his partner to return your firearm. The partner walks up and dumps the gun, the empty magazine, and a handful of bullets into your hands.

By now, everybody is crossing the street to avoid you, your wife is horribly embarrassed, and the nearby store owners aren't about to allow you in. Oh well, what the heck, your nice afternoon has been ruined, anyway.

This happened.

[mulfjohn]

I think there will be more 30.07 signs in businesses than 30.06. Most people don't fear the unknown,ie, concealed. They do fear what they see,ie,open carry. I think it will take some time for people to relax before we start to see a reduction in signs. Just like it was when chl was enacted. Now most businesses are fine with chl holders.

[Winchster]

...But a voluntary/consensual contact (see the give-n-take hypothetical scenario/script I wrote a few posts back) is not a stop/detention.

In my opinion, the hypothetical give-n-take you wrote is what is specifically prohibited. As soon as the officer requests ID, I am legally bound to provide my CHL. It becomes blatantly obvious at that point that I have been detained for no other reason than to determine my license status. I've never seen or heard of a LEO approaching someone just to "chat about the weather".

[Abraham]

As an aside to this thread, I'd like to ask: Why isn't the CHL enough identity all by it's lonesome?

Your photo's on it.

It's good enough by it's self in other uses as a stand alone identity.

But, in addition to providing your CHL, LEO's want your DL too.

Why?

[C-dub]

As an aside to this thread, I'd like to ask: Why isn't the CHL enough identity all by it's lonesome?

Your photo's on it.

It's good enough by it's self in other uses as a stand alone identity.

But, in addition to providing your CHL, LEO's want your DL too.

Why?

For one, they are supposed to match. And also possibly because they are not just trying to establish identity.

[Winchster]

As an aside to this thread, I'd like to ask: Why isn't the CHL enough identity all by it's lonesome?

Your photo's on it.

It's good enough by it's self in other uses as a stand alone identity.

But, in addition to providing your CHL, LEO's want your DL too.

Why?

Because for some ridiculous reason it isn't considered a "primary" form of ID

[The Wall]

Good question. At first I thought it might be because your DL is easier for them to run through the system. Then I looked at my CHL and the DL number is also on it.
So does that mean you have to have a drivers license to carry a gun? They don't ask for two forms of ID when stopped for a traffic violation. Are you less likely to have two fake ID's? Only your hairdresser knows for sure.

[A-R]

...But a voluntary/consensual contact (see the give-n-take hypothetical scenario/script I wrote a few posts back) is not a stop/detention.

In my opinion, the hypothetical give-n-take you wrote is what is specifically prohibited. As soon as the officer requests ID, I am legally bound to provide my CHL. It becomes blatantly obvious at that point that I have been detained for no other reason than to determine my license status. I've never seen or heard of a LEO approaching someone just to "chat about the weather".

viewtopic.php?f=82&t=77279" onclick="window.open(this.href);return false;

http://www.statutes.legis.state.tx.us/D ... tm#411.205" onclick="window.open(this.href);return false;

Sec. 411.205. REQUIREMENT TO DISPLAY LICENSE. If a license holder is carrying a handgun on or about the license holder's person when a magistrate or a peace officer demands that the license holder display identification, the license holder shall display both the license holder's driver's license or identification certificate issued by the department and the license holder's handgun license.

[Winchster]

...But a voluntary/consensual contact (see the give-n-take hypothetical scenario/script I wrote a few posts back) is not a stop/detention.

In my opinion, the hypothetical give-n-take you wrote is what is specifically prohibited. As soon as the officer requests ID, I am legally bound to provide my CHL. It becomes blatantly obvious at that point that I have been detained for no other reason than to determine my license status. I've never seen or heard of a LEO approaching someone just to "chat about the weather".

viewtopic.php?f=82&t=77279" onclick="window.open(this.href);return false;

http://www.statutes.legis.state.tx.us/D ... tm#411.205" onclick="window.open(this.href);return false;

Sec. 411.205. REQUIREMENT TO DISPLAY LICENSE. If a license holder is carrying a handgun on or about the license holder's person when a magistrate or a peace officer demands that the license holder display identification, the license holder shall display both the license holder's driver's license or identification certificate issued by the department and the license holder's handgun license.

Are you suggesting that in your hypothetical I request the officer articulate whether he is asking or demanding for my ID?
You can't be serious.

[mojo84]

Cops love it when people play poker with them and call their bluff.

Citizens obeying the law shouldn't be put in that position in the first place.

[Beiruty]

Any news about the "Disorderly conduct by displaying a firearm in manner....."

[A-R]

...But a voluntary/consensual contact (see the give-n-take hypothetical scenario/script I wrote a few posts back) is not a stop/detention.

In my opinion, the hypothetical give-n-take you wrote is what is specifically prohibited. As soon as the officer requests ID, I am legally bound to provide my CHL. It becomes blatantly obvious at that point that I have been detained for no other reason than to determine my license status. I've never seen or heard of a LEO approaching someone just to "chat about the weather".

viewtopic.php?f=82&t=77279" onclick="window.open(this.href);return false;

http://www.statutes.legis.state.tx.us/D ... tm#411.205" onclick="window.open(this.href);return false;

Sec. 411.205. REQUIREMENT TO DISPLAY LICENSE. If a license holder is carrying a handgun on or about the license holder's person when a magistrate or a peace officer demands that the license holder display identification, the license holder shall display both the license holder's driver's license or identification certificate issued by the department and the license holder's handgun license.

Are you suggesting that in your hypothetical I request the officer articulate whether he is asking or demanding for my ID?
You can't be serious.

I'm suggesting your premise is preposterous. A LEO making a voluntary/consensual contact is NEVER prohibited. The fact you can't understand the difference between consensual and detained is your problem, not the cop's. A non-LEO citizen can REQUEST your ID too. And you can tell anyone (cop or otherwise) REQUESTING your ID to pound sand. The Texas statute specifically uses the term DEMAND in context for a reason. There are instances when a cop can DEMAND your ID (a lawful traffic stop being the situation most are familiar with).