Ohio CHL Visiting Texas

[Jumping Frog]

After the recent changes in Ohio law, what's holding up reciprocity between our two states now?

I'm not sure why Texas hasn't already recognized an Ohio license as a unilateral proclamation as we have New York and others. My guess is that Ohio didn't require a background check before issuing a license. If that has changed, then we may recognize an Ohio license soon. Someone posted earlier that Ohio would recognize a Texas license in March.

Exactly right.

Ohio passed a law that goes into effect March 23, 2015. One part of the bill provides that Ohio will unilaterally recognize all licenses from all states, so a Texas CHL will be valid in Ohio after that date.

A different part of that bill provides that all Ohio licenses issued after that date will require an FBI background check, which meets the requirement under Texas law to recognize another state's license. However, I have "heard" that Texas updates its reciprocity list on an annual basis, every January, so that Texas will not recognize that change in Ohio law until January, 2016. In addition, I would expect the Texas recognition to apply only to Ohio licenses issued after March 23, 2015 since licenses issued before that date may have only had an Ohio state-level background check instead of an FBI background check.

The previous Ohio law provided that the Ohio Bureau of Criminal Investigation ("BCI", analogous to Texas DPS), would perform the criminal background check of all CHL applicants that were long-term Ohio residents and only had an FBI check for applicants who had moved to Ohio from other states. Thus there are existing Ohio CHL's that I would assume Texas will not recognize until the licenses are renewed under the new law.

[mr1337]

I think another thing that Ohio is doing right is in the bill, they are required to keep financial data about costs associated with issuing CCW licenses so that in the future, they can bring the price of the license closer to the actual cost.

Can we get that here in Texas, please? I'm no expert, but I doubt it takes $140 to cover all costs associated with issuing a CHL.

[jmra]

I think another thing that Ohio is doing right is in the bill, they are required to keep financial data about costs associated with issuing CCW licenses so that in the future, they can bring the price of the license closer to the actual cost.

Can we get that here in Texas, please? I'm no expert, but I doubt it takes $140 to cover all costs associated with issuing a CHL.

I can't complain about the $5/yr I pay for my renewal.

[Gaidheal]

FYI shooting ranges arm their employees legally because employers can permit (or forbid) employees to carry in any manner they see fit. Note that this is a business and its employees and agents, not the same thing as being on someone's private land with permission.

As for carry on private land and premises with owner/controller permission, I have frequently seen it said this cannot be done but this does not accord with legal advice I received and doesn't seem to accord with the plain language, either (in part, hence the opinion, of course). There is nothing limiting control to a single person; if the owner or their agent (in other words someone with 'control') permits others to carry, they are implicitly extending control of the premises to the extent required for that. A nice simple statute clarifying it would be great, though but truthfully this is a simple Common Law principle and as with most states Texas's statutory framework rests on Common Law as inherited from Great Britain. Louisiana, for example, does not due its French legal tradition (Civil Law, in common with much of continental Europe).

For our Ohio friend:

You can legally have a pistol in your vehicle, so long as you are not a prohibited person and you conceal it. It can be on your person but if you leave the vehicle with it to do anything other than remove it to another location where you can legally posess it (such as to take it to your room, into a shooting ranged, go hunting with it or whatever) then you are now committing the crime of "Unlawful Carry of a Weapon" or UCW per TPC 46.02 - You don't want to do this.

Once you are on private land and premises (not a business), in all practical terms, you have nothing to worry about. Legally speaking it is my opinion, based on the law and legal advice I received on this specific topic, that if you are given permission by the owner or someone who can speak with their authority (agent, manager, whatever) you can carry freely and legally, concealed or openly in accordance with their wishes.

However, this is NOT legal advice or practice of law. Take the advice or not as you see fit and rely on it to the extent you are prepared to accept liability for doing so.

[Jumping Frog]

As for carry on private land and premises with owner/controller permission, I have frequently seen it said this cannot be done but this does not accord with legal advice I received and doesn't seem to accord with the plain language, either (in part, hence the opinion, of course).

Well, the attorney who owns these forums, sits on the NRA Board of Directors, and has personally been involved with drafting Texas firearms laws for decades has disagreed with your interpretation on many occasions in various posts on these forums. Personally, I'll place more credence in Mr. Cotton's viewpoint, but you are welcome to believe whatever the heck you want to believe.

[Gaidheal]

I'll put faith in the formal legal advice I solicited as opposed to assurance from someone on a forum about someone else on the forum, aye. I urge you to take the same position when it comes to legal advice. However, I am sure that the person you refer to does not, in fact, generally give legal advice on here but rather gives his qualified professional opinion. Now while I am sure he is a competent lawyer, that does not mean he is necessarily always correct or perhaps more accurately that another lawyer might not come to a different conclusion. Given the track record of the lawyer I took the advice from and his specific area of legal practice, if I had to choose I would unquestionably go with him (over your forum acquaintance). HtH.

[jmra]

I'll put faith in the formal legal advice I solicited as opposed to assurance from someone on a forum about someone else on the forum, aye. I urge you to take the same position when it comes to legal advice. However, I am sure that the person you refer to does not, in fact, generally give legal advice on here but rather gives his qualified professional opinion. Now while I am sure he is a competent lawyer, that does not mean he is necessarily always correct or perhaps more accurately that another lawyer might not come to a different conclusion. Given the track record of the lawyer I took the advice from and his specific area of legal practice, if I had to choose I would unquestionably go with him (over your forum acquaintance). HtH.

So what you are saying is that since you are just someone giving advice on a forum we should just ignore all the advice you just gave. That works for me. You might want to google Mr. Cotton. When you do I think you'll find there aren't many lawyers out there that know more about TX gun laws (including the lawyer from whom you obtained legal advice).

[Jumping Frog]

So does this law take effect tomorrow (Mar 23, 2015)?

The new Ohio law takes effect tomorrow. Ohio will recognize a Texas CHL starting tomorrow, although Texas will not recognize an Ohio CHL until some point in the future.

[Charles L. Cotton]

Once you are on private land and premises (not a business), in all practical terms, you have nothing to worry about. Legally speaking it is my opinion, based on the law and legal advice I received on this specific topic, that if you are given permission by the owner or someone who can speak with their authority (agent, manager, whatever) you can carry freely and legally, concealed or openly in accordance with their wishes.

This is absolutely incorrect. In fact, HB1509 has been filed this legislative session to make it legal to carry on private property with the owner's permission. If a Texas lawyer gave you this advice, then you need to get another lawyer.

To our Ohio visitor, don't rely upon the above-quoted advice. (See below.) Unless you are on your own property, or property your control, you cannot carry a handgun. There are exceptions for hunting, shooting ranges, etc., but those are just that, exceptions.

Chas.

Sec. 46.02. UNLAWFUL CARRYING WEAPONS. (a) A person commits an offense if the person intentionally, knowingly, or recklessly carries on or about his or her person a handgun, illegal knife, or club if the person is not:

(1) on the person's own premises or premises under the person's control; or . . .

[mojo84]

I love it when new folks with all the answers show up on here and want to set everyone straight.

I also am leery of the idea of tortured reading and interpreting the law in order to find a loophole to do justify doing what someone wants.

I'll stick with Mr. Cotton's opinion on this and other legal matters regarding guns. I do wish he would chime in and explain the theory that open carry is allowed when traveling which is discussed in another thread as I just can't wrap my mind around it.

[Charles L. Cotton]

I love it when new folks with all the answers show up on here and want to set everyone straight.

I also am leery of the idea of tortured reading and interpreting the law in order to find a loophole to do justify doing what someone wants.

I'll stick with Mr. Cotton's opinion on this and other legal matters regarding guns. I do wish he would chime in and explain the theory that open carry is allowed when traveling which is discussed in another thread as I just can't wrap my mind around it.

Traveling is not defined by statute and the case law definitions are all over the map. The theory that if you are traveling, you are not carrying pursuant to the authority of your CHL is not going to fly in court because a CHL is carrying under the authority of your license.

Let's follow his argument through to conclusion in a trial. In spite of the words "Do not apply," Tex. Penal Code §46.15(b) establishes a defense that must be asserted in trial. If a CHL were arrested for unlawfully carrying a handgun under Tex. Panel Code §46.02, then the CHL must either assert the defense of having a CHL, or it is waived. Under his erroneous theory, if the person was traveling he would not be carrying under the authority of his CHL, thus the defense would not be asserted. The only question for the jury would be whether the person was "traveling." If not, then they would be convicted of a violation of Tex. Penal Code §46.02. The chances of prevailing on a traveling defense are very remote bordering on impossible, unless one were truly traveling a long distance in Texas.

If the CHL was carrying openly and asserted their CHL as a defense to a Tex. Penal Code §46.02 charge, then they would win on that count, but would be convicted of a violation of Tex. Penal Code §46.035(a), "intentional display."

In reality, the way it would actually work is that the ADA would charge the CHL with violation of §46.035(a) rather than §46.02, thus the "traveling" defense would not be relevant and the CHL would be convicted of a Class A misdemeanor.

The discussion above presumes that the CHL was arrested while they were not in their own motor vehicle or one under their control. If they were in their car, then they have not violated §46.02 and no defense is necessary. However, §46.02(A-1)(1) creates an offense if the handgun is "in plain view" so the CHL could be convicted of a Class A misdemeanor violation.

I understand how he's trying to bootstrap a traveling defense, but that will not work in the real world. It would be a great law school exam question, but offering that advice for people carrying handguns is beyond irresponsible.

Chas.

[mojo84]

Thanks again. I see it as an issue with the definitions of traveling and the idea of open carry.

[Jumping Frog]

Back to the original topic, Ohio and Texas signed a reciprocity agreement, effective today, so the OP can carry anywhere in Texas that a Texan CHL can carry by virtue of his using his Ohio "License to Carry a Concealed Handgun" (ignoring any FGFSZ issues).

http://content.govdelivery.com/accounts ... from=share" onclick="window.open(this.href);return false;

[jmra]

I have a friend who frequently travels to Ohio who is overjoyed