MANIA The link between psychiatric drugs... mass murder

[seamusTX]

There are just over 300 million people in the country now, we also have access to much more information today....how can we say that there are more killings now than in the past.

You are right that the population is larger (3 times what it was 100 years ago), so there is more crime in absolute numbers, and it is more widely publicized.

However, homicide has always been taken seriously and thus recorded, and the rate is higher now than it was in the past.

As for depression medications, yeah, in the past, people just sucked it up because they had no other choice. They also got crude dental work with no anaesthetics. I think modern medications have legitimate uses, though I also think they're overprescribed (IMHO).

- Jim

[phddan]

Short personal story here, that happened just a few months ago.

My nephew was a bright, intelligent (mensa material), happy go lucky 24 year old. Graduated with a business degree and was doing good. Got involved in a relationship that turned sour, and he went into depression. Was seeing a shrink and was prescribed meds. Was doing really good getting over the depression, when the doc decided to change meds. Two days later he ate a 12 ga.

Yeah, I blame the doc for this. Why change a good thing??
I think doctors in general are quacks, but that is a topic for another thread.

[saltydog]

I don't know about tendancy to do bad stuff, but the last time I tried to quit smoking, the pulmonary guy said that anti-depressants increased the probability of successful abstinance of nicotine.

It was a 30 day prescription, no refill, and it was a help.

I was able to stay off the dang cigs for only a year.

There is something about eating a plate of greasy enchiladas and a cup of coffee that just screams for a smoke.

salty.

[shootthesheet]

Just because a company is forced to pay money doesn't mean guilt in any way. Following that reasoning, any parent that pays a ransom for their child, after a kidnapping, would be guilty of supporting the criminal activity.

I agree with the idea that these people may have done these things with or without the drugs. It is my opinion that we must stop allowing dangerous people to have the chance to harm others. If they reach a level of "sickness" they must be institutionalized. Help the "sick" and protect the innocent. Gun control exists because of these people and criminals. Take them out of the equation and we have no need to control civil rights. That is my opinion and I would never suggest locking up those who are simply temporarily depressed or children with so called "behavior problems". Just those with a history of evaluations that prove they are not recovering or refuse to stay on the prescribed medication.

[Lodge2004]

The articles in WND do not constitute scientific proof, though the correlations suggest there's ample cause to study the issue . . . but the vehemence of some of the reactions from the shrink community sure make it look as if they want to avoid the scrutiny.

The correlations are very interesting, but do not constitute cause and effect. I could just as easily argue that only people with guns shoot people and then say that reactions from the gun-owning community to my argument sure makes it look as if they want to avoid scrutiny.

Prescriptions medications are but one of a steadily growing laundry list of items that contribute to our declining society but I would hesitate to single them out as a "cause". In my mind, they are just another symptom.

[HankB]

The articles in WND do not constitute scientific proof, though the correlations suggest there's ample cause to study the issue . . . but the vehemence of some of the reactions from the shrink community sure make it look as if they want to avoid the scrutiny.

The correlations are very interesting, but do not constitute cause and effect. I could just as easily argue that only people with guns shoot people and then say that reactions from the gun-owning community to my argument sure makes it look as if they want to avoid scrutiny.

The difference is that guns have been around for centuries and school shootings seem to have started around the time shrinks started doping kids in large numbers . . . all while guns became less available.

[Lodge2004]

The difference is that guns have been around for centuries and school shootings seem to have started around the time shrinks started doping kids in large numbers . . .

and we got video games, personal computers, violent TV programming, hip-hop music, adoration of societies misfits, increasing percentage of out-of-wedlock births, etc, etc, etc. All of it adds up to an interesting cocktail that is having a detrimental effect on society in general, but I would hesitate to assign blame to any individual item.

Picking a single "cause" is exactly what the Brady Bunch and similar groups do, i.e. THEY want people to believe that if you eliminate guns then you eliminate murder and mahem. WE know violence is part of human nature and firearms are merely a tool that removes size and strength from the equation.

[HankB]

. . . and we got video games, personal computers, violent TV programming, hip-hop music, adoration of societies misfits, increasing percentage of out-of-wedlock births, etc, etc, etc.

Very true . . . but I'd be very surprised if any of these factors were found to be as ubiquitous across the range of school shooters as prescribed psychoactive meds are.

[wjmphoto]

Considering this comes from the same source that claimed eating soy at a young age increases the risk of homosexuality, I would say that this article is, at the very least, suspect. WND is not known as a source of reliable news and has little credibility. One last thing that people need to remember is that this article relies upon anecdotal evidence, not valid scientific research. Without use of the scientific method to validate the claim, the article and assertion of the "doctor" is worthless.

[HankB]

. . . WND is not known as a source of reliable news and has little credibility . . .

Hey, they're at least as reliable as ABC, NBC, and CBS . . .

Oh . . . right . . . I see what you mean.

[pbandjelly]

. . . WND is not known as a source of reliable news and has little credibility . . .

Hey, they're at least as reliable as ABC, NBC, and CBS . . .

Oh . . . right . . . I see what you mean.

[wjmphoto]

The difference is that guns have been around for centuries and school shootings seem to have started around the time shrinks started doping kids in large numbers ....

Really?

A brief bit of historical research proves this to be 100% incorrect!

Royal High School, Old Town of Edinburgh, Scotland - Tuesday, September 5, 1595 - Students take over school and stage armed rebellion. They kill the magistrate who responds. Not much more info but we do know that prescribed drugs were not involved.

Consolidated School of Bath, Bath, Michigan - Wednesday, May 18, 1927
No guns involved but definitely the worst school massacre in US history and not drugs involved.

Columbia University, New York City, New York - Monday, July 14, 1952:
Whackjob used .22 cal to kill secretary at the school because he was not published. (No Drugs)

Swarthmore College, Swarthmore, Pennsylvania - Tuesday, January 11, 1955: Bob Bechtel uses .22 cal rifle to fire on classmates killing one. (no drugs)

Maryland Park Junior High School, Maryland Park, Maryland - Friday, May 4, 1956: Billy Ray Prevatte uses .22 cal rifle to kill one teacher and wound several others after being expelled from school. (Not Drugs, But I do see a pattern of .22 cal use here!!!! perhaps the caliber is the real issue that should be looked into!!!!!!)

Our Lady of the Angels (Elementary) Catholic School, Chicago, Illinois -Monday, December 1, 1958: 10-year-old arsonist sets fire to school killing 95 students and nuns and injuring 100 more. (No guns, but also no drugs!!!)

Poe Elementary School, Houston, Texas - Tuesday, September 15, 1959: Paul Harold Orgeron killed 6 and injured several others with a case filled with gelex triggered by a .32 cal pistol. (Darn so much for the .22 cal theory! But still no drugs involved.)

Dubose Intermediate School, Alice, Texas - September 1960: Katie McCoy kills boyfriend with .22 cal target pistol. (Hey there's the .22 again and no drugs maybe it is the caliber!)

A Catholic Elementary School in Cologne, Germany - Thursday, June 11, 1964: Walter Seifert used homemade flamethrower to kill 10 including himself.

University of Texas, Austin, Texas - Monday, August 1, 1966: I think you already know this one and the fact that there were no prescription drugs involved.

Grand Rapids High School, Grand Rapids, Minnesota - Wednesday, October 5, 1966: Another school killing with that pesky .22 cal. Still no drugs. Boy that .22 is sounding more and more like the cause of all these problems the more we look.

I could go on as there are plenty of school shootings that occurred prior to the "rampant" use of drugs on school aged children. Using the same poor methods as the researchers it is very easy to say that the cause of all of these shootings is the evil .22 caliber bullet because it was involved in a majority of these incidents. But that is nothing more than anecdotal evidence and has no bearing on reality.

The article in question is a joke and has no evidence more valid to prove it's thesis than what I have put forth here to prove that the .22 cal is the cause of these shootings.

The truth of the matter is that there is no single cause for the shootings except mental illness or stress induced by continued bullying. Human beings do crazy things and sometimes there is no single cause that can be determined to pull them all together. It's easy to try and place blame on one single thing, but to do so with validity requires actual use of the scientific method in order to prove your hypothesis, not simple anecdotal evidence.

[G.C.Montgomery]

Wjmphoto,

Glad you posted all of these as I had the same reaction when reading the post that inspired it. But from what I remember, Charles Whitman had been prescribed at least two early psychoactive drugs during his life prior to the shooting even though neither was found in his system at the time of his death. There are reports indicating he'd had an abusive childhood, had a large cancerous tumor in his brain and had been decribed as someone who was "oozing with hostility" by at least one doctor.

It seems to me Whitman is a good example of a case where we really don't know what single factor caused him to kill his wife and mother and then climb that tower. Some folks will zoom in on the abusive father while others claimed the tumor had impacted the emotional control center of his brain. And still others, as in this conversation, will be convinced that the prescriptions of Valium and Dexedrine lead to Whitman's eventual mental break while ignoring the fact he'd told the doctor of unrelenting anger and depression prior to being issued those prescriptions. The reality is, until we have a way of streaming the actual thoughts of a person for review, we have no way of knowing exactly what makes some people do what they do.

[TX Rancher]

The reality is, until we have a way of streaming the actual thoughts of a person for review, we have no way of knowing exactly what makes some people do what they do.

Sounds about right to me...

[KBCraig]

Royal High School, Old Town of Edinburgh, Scotland - Tuesday, September 5, 1595 - Students take over school and stage armed rebellion. They kill the magistrate who responds. Not much more info but we do know that prescribed drugs were not involved.

But it did involve spoiled children of the very wealthy.

Consolidated School of Bath, Bath, Michigan - Wednesday, May 18, 1927
No guns involved but definitely the worst school massacre in US history and not drugs involved.

It also didn't involve students (except as victims). The perpetrator was a 55 year old school board member.

Columbia University, New York City, New York - Monday, July 14, 1952:
Whackjob used .22 cal to kill secretary at the school because he was not published. (No Drugs)

Also not a "school shooting" as we generally think of it. The killer wasn't a student; he was a 29 year old schizophrenic, and the victim was not a school secretary, but worked for the American Physical Society.

Swarthmore College, Swarthmore, Pennsylvania - Tuesday, January 11, 1955: Bob Bechtel uses .22 cal rifle to fire on classmates killing one. (no drugs)

Again, this was a 22 year old college student, not a "school shooting". (He was found not guilty by reason of insanity, spent five years in a mental hospital, then became a professor of psychology!

Maryland Park Junior High School, Maryland Park, Maryland - Friday, May 4, 1956: Billy Ray Prevatte uses .22 cal rifle to kill one teacher and wound several others after being expelled from school. (Not Drugs, But I do see a pattern of .22 cal use here!!!! perhaps the caliber is the real issue that should be looked into!!!!!!)

Our Lady of the Angels (Elementary) Catholic School, Chicago, Illinois -Monday, December 1, 1958: 10-year-old arsonist sets fire to school killing 95 students and nuns and injuring 100 more. (No guns, but also no drugs!!!)

But they both involve schools and students. :-)

Poe Elementary School, Houston, Texas - Tuesday, September 15, 1959: Paul Harold Orgeron killed 6 and injured several others with a case filled with gelex triggered by a .32 cal pistol. (Darn so much for the .22 cal theory! But still no drugs involved.)

47 year old man kills his own son and several others. Not a "school shooting".

Dubose Intermediate School, Alice, Texas - September 1960: Katie McCoy kills boyfriend with .22 cal target pistol. (Hey there's the .22 again and no drugs maybe it is the caliber!)

A Catholic Elementary School in Cologne, Germany - Thursday, June 11, 1964: Walter Seifert used homemade flamethrower to kill 10 including himself.

University of Texas, Austin, Texas - Monday, August 1, 1966: I think you already know this one and the fact that there were no prescription drugs involved.

Grand Rapids High School, Grand Rapids, Minnesota - Wednesday, October 5, 1966: Another school killing with that pesky .22 cal. Still no drugs. Boy that .22 is sounding more and more like the cause of all these problems the more we look.

Okay, I'll give you two out of four. Flamethrowers don't count, and a 25 year old university student isn't really in the "school shooting" category.

Great list, though. Google and Wikipedia are fun!