Ohio CHL Visiting Texas

[The End]

Ok, guys I need a little help. I'm a member of Ohio Carry Forums but thought I'd ask my questions here. I will be visiting my wife's dad and mom in Texas this month. I'm From Ohio and have a Ohio CHL. Every state on our route has reciprocity with Ohio, except Texas, so I have some questions. 1-Can a non-resident carry a loaded handgun in my vehicle on my person in Texas without a Texas CHL and if not, how do handguns need to be transported in a car? 2-Can I carry on my wife's parents property? It is private, away from town and they have like 270 acres. They don't care if I do or not but is it legal? They have a personal range set up where I can shoot on their land. If I can carry on their property can it be concealed or open carry? He also has 4 wheelers and Off-road vehicles. Can I carry on his property while driving those vehicles? Any help you could give me would be great. Thanks, Don

[rbwhatever1]

You can carry a loaded handgun in your vehicle "out of view". It can not be on your person but it can be laying in the seat with a towel over it. You can also carry anyway you wish on private property with permission from the property owner. You can carry anyway you wish on ATV's and other off road vehicles as long as you don't leave the property.


Sec. 46.02. UNLAWFUL CARRYING WEAPONS. (a) A person commits an offense if the person intentionally, knowingly, or recklessly carries on or about his or her person a handgun, illegal knife, or club if the person is not:
(1) on the person's own premises or premises under the person's control; or
(2) inside of or directly en route to a motor vehicle or watercraft that is owned by the person or under the person's control.

(a-1) A person commits an offense if the person intentionally, knowingly, or recklessly carries on or about his or her person a handgun in a motor vehicle or watercraft that is owned by the person or under the person's control at any time in which:
(1) the handgun is in plain view; or

http://www.statutes.legis.state.tx.us/d ... /PE.46.htm" onclick="window.open(this.href);return false;

[Jumping Frog]

Glad it was answered here because I wasn't going to try to quote from my phone over on OFCC.

I disagree with the above interpretation on some minor points.

First, there is no statutory requirement that the handgun cannot be on your person in a car. The only requirement is you cannot still have it on your person when you step out of the car. Some people recommend having it not on your person in case you are stopped by LEO and asked to step out of the car, and I understand how that simplifies the issue, but on your person in the car is not forbidden by statute.

Second, on their property, a private party cannot give you permission to break the law. Notice the statute uses the language "premises under the person's control"; it does not say "with permission". I recall a post on this subject by Mr. Cotton where he made this exact point and asked the question, "If you are in control of the premises, does that mean you can tell tell property owner to leave?"

A slightly different example, someone cannot host a poker party with six other people in his apartment and give all six people permission to carry on his premises. Seven people simultaneously "in control" of the premises is ridiculous.

All that said, if your parents-in-law have 270 acres, you could carry all day long and have virtually zero chance of arrest. If you are shooting at their range or en route to/from the range, or hunting, carrying is explicitly allowed.

If you are going to visit TX frequently before your Ohio CHL next renews after 2015, then I'd suggest spending the $50-odd bucks and get an AZ non-resident license. An Ohio license issued after March 23, 2015 should be recognized by Texas in January 2016. However, your existing license, issued before 3/23, will not be recognized because it did not meet the NICS requirements. Your renewal license (assuming renewal after 3/23/2015) will meet the NICS requirements.

[RPBrown]

Glad it was answered here because I wasn't going to try to quote from my phone over on OFCC.

I disagree with the above interpretation on some minor points.

First, there is no statutory requirement that the handgun cannot be on your person in a car. The only requirement is you cannot still have it on your person when you step out of the car. Some people recommend having it not on your person in case you are stopped by LEO and asked to step out of the car, and I understand how that simplifies the issue, but on your person in the car is not forbidden by statute.

Second, on their property, a private party cannot give you permission to break the law. Notice the statute uses the language "premises under the person's control"; it does not say "with permission". I recall a post on this subject by Mr. Cotton where he made this exact point and asked the question, "If you are in control of the premises, does that mean you can tell tell property owner to leave?"

A slightly different example, someone cannot host a poker party with six other people in his apartment and give all six people permission to carry on his premises. Seven people simultaneously "in control" of the premises is ridiculous.

All that said, if your parents-in-law have 270 acres, you could carry all day long and have virtually zero chance of arrest. If you are shooting at their range or en route to/from the range, or hunting, carrying is explicitly allowed.

If you are going to visit TX frequently before your Ohio CHL next renews after 2015, then I'd suggest spending the $50-odd bucks and get an AZ non-resident license. An Ohio license issued after March 23, 2015 should be recognized by Texas in January 2016. However, your existing license, issued before 3/23, will not be recognized because it did not meet the NICS requirements. Your renewal license (assuming renewal after 3/23/2015) will meet the NICS requirements.

Based on your comments, how do employees open carry at gun ranges? They are not all in control of the premises. Not saying you are right or wrong,just curious.

[TVGuy]

I believe it's this that exempts range employees:

(b) Section 46.02 does not apply to a person who:


(3) is engaging in lawful hunting, fishing, or other sporting activity on the immediate premises where the activity is conducted, or is en route between the premises and the actor's residence, motor vehicle, or watercraft, if the weapon is a type commonly used in the activity;

[treadlightly]

The only requirement is you cannot still have it on your person when you step out of the car.

While waiting for my CHL I mused about carrying to and from work, since I own my office.

Sec. 46.02. UNLAWFUL CARRYING WEAPONS. (a) A person commits an offense if the person intentionally, knowingly, or recklessly carries on or about his or her person a handgun, illegal knife, or club if the person is not:
(1) on the person's own premises or premises under the person's control; or
(2) inside of or directly en route to a motor vehicle or watercraft that is owned by the person or under the person's control.

Seems like you could tuck your popgun away from view (in a safe holster, please) and go to and from your car, and drive most roads without a CHL.

In my fogged understanding, I don't think you can drive through school zones with a pistol unless you have a CHL.

Welcome to Texas, by the way, sorry your current Ohio CHL isn't recognized.

[Charles L. Cotton]

I disagree with the above interpretation on some minor points.

Second, on their property, a private party cannot give you permission to break the law. Notice the statute uses the language "premises under the person's control"; it does not say "with permission". I recall a post on this subject by Mr. Cotton where he made this exact point and asked the question, "If you are in control of the premises, does that mean you can tell tell property owner to leave?"

Correct. HB1509 has been filed to address this specific issue; i.e. give property owners the authority to allow people to carry handguns on their property or property under their control.

Chas.

[Charles L. Cotton]

Glad it was answered here because I wasn't going to try to quote from my phone over on OFCC.

I disagree with the above interpretation on some minor points.

First, there is no statutory requirement that the handgun cannot be on your person in a car. The only requirement is you cannot still have it on your person when you step out of the car. Some people recommend having it not on your person in case you are stopped by LEO and asked to step out of the car, and I understand how that simplifies the issue, but on your person in the car is not forbidden by statute.

Second, on their property, a private party cannot give you permission to break the law. Notice the statute uses the language "premises under the person's control"; it does not say "with permission". I recall a post on this subject by Mr. Cotton where he made this exact point and asked the question, "If you are in control of the premises, does that mean you can tell tell property owner to leave?"

A slightly different example, someone cannot host a poker party with six other people in his apartment and give all six people permission to carry on his premises. Seven people simultaneously "in control" of the premises is ridiculous.

All that said, if your parents-in-law have 270 acres, you could carry all day long and have virtually zero chance of arrest. If you are shooting at their range or en route to/from the range, or hunting, carrying is explicitly allowed.

If you are going to visit TX frequently before your Ohio CHL next renews after 2015, then I'd suggest spending the $50-odd bucks and get an AZ non-resident license. An Ohio license issued after March 23, 2015 should be recognized by Texas in January 2016. However, your existing license, issued before 3/23, will not be recognized because it did not meet the NICS requirements. Your renewal license (assuming renewal after 3/23/2015) will meet the NICS requirements.

Based on your comments, how do employees open carry at gun ranges? They are not all in control of the premises. Not saying you are right or wrong,just curious.

As TVGuy noted, there's a specific provision in the Code dealing with gun ranges. However, that provision will not apply to a gun store or other businesses where employees sometimes do carry handguns either openly or concealed with or without a CHL. (The concealment part is another topic.) The code references "control" not "exclusive control" so it's not terribly clear as to the level of control that must be exercisable. To my knowledge, there is no case law holding that there can be only one person in "control" of the property. It's probably a matter of application meaning that LEOs aren't going to make an arrest and the DA won't prosecute when an employee carries a handgun at work. I know that DPS addresses this in the context of an employee serving in a security capacity, but that too is a different topic.

Chas.

[mr1337]

Ok, guys I need a little help. I'm a member of Ohio Carry Forums but thought I'd ask my questions here. I will be visiting my wife's dad and mom in Texas this month. I'm From Ohio and have a Ohio CHL. Every state on our route has reciprocity with Ohio, except Texas, so I have some questions. 1-Can a non-resident carry a loaded handgun in my vehicle on my person in Texas without a Texas CHL and if not, how do handguns need to be transported in a car? 2-Can I carry on my wife's parents property? It is private, away from town and they have like 270 acres. They don't care if I do or not but is it legal? They have a personal range set up where I can shoot on their land. If I can carry on their property can it be concealed or open carry? He also has 4 wheelers and Off-road vehicles. Can I carry on his property while driving those vehicles? Any help you could give me would be great. Thanks, Don

1-Can a non-resident carry a loaded handgun in my vehicle on my person in Texas without a Texas CHL and if not, how do handguns need to be transported in a car?

Yes, non-residents can carry loaded handguns in their vehicle (or a vehicle under their control) without a Texas CHL, but it must be concealed. You can also carry while traveling, which should cover rest stops, gas stations, food, and hotel stays on your way there and back.

2-Can I carry on my wife's parents property? It is private, away from town and they have like 270 acres. They don't care if I do or not but is it legal?

You can carry on your property and property under your control. If your parents deem the property to be under your control, then I would say you would be able to carry.

If I can carry on their property can it be concealed or open carry?

If the property is "under your control" then both Open Carry and Concealed Carry are permitted.

He also has 4 wheelers and Off-road vehicles. Can I carry on his property while driving those vehicles?

Again, if the property is "under your control" - yes.

(Please note this is not legal advice but is simply my interpretation of the law. However, Texas gives a lot of power to the property owner in this type of scenario.)

[oohrah]

Seems like I read somewhere that if you had keys to the property, that it was under your control, even if you were not the owner.

Anyone know if this interprettion is valid, or just wishful thinking?

[The End]

Hey, guys. Thanks for all the responses. So just to be sure. From your replies it seams that carring in my car is ok as long as it's concealed. Would this apply to a car in my wife's name that I'm driving? What about a rental car? Also if I'm on her parents property and I go down to his range to shoot can I open carry (since I'm using it for a sporting purpose)? Does this apply to carrying while fishing in one of his ponds? Thanks again guys, Don

[Scott B.]

After the recent changes in Ohio law, what's holding up reciprocity between our two states now?

[Pawpaw]

Hey, guys. Thanks for all the responses. So just to be sure. From your replies it seams that carring in my car is ok as long as it's concealed.

Would this apply to a car in my wife's name that I'm driving?

Yes. "Under your control" is not defined, but if you're driving who would argue?

What about a rental car?

Yes. That's definitely "under your control" and you have paperwork to back it up.

Also if I'm on her parents property and I go down to his range to shoot can I open carry (since I'm using it for a sporting purpose)?

Yes.

Does this apply to carrying while fishing in one of his ponds? Thanks again guys, Don

Sure, as long it is the type of handgun normally used for fishing.

[Charles L. Cotton]

After the recent changes in Ohio law, what's holding up reciprocity between our two states now?

I'm not sure why Texas hasn't already recognized an Ohio license as a unilateral proclamation as we have New York and others. My guess is that Ohio didn't require a background check before issuing a license. If that has changed, then we may recognize an Ohio license soon. Someone posted earlier that Ohio would recognize a Texas license in March.

Chas.

[mr1337]

Hey, guys. Thanks for all the responses. So just to be sure. From your replies it seams that carring in my car is ok as long as it's concealed. Would this apply to a car in my wife's name that I'm driving? What about a rental car? Also if I'm on her parents property and I go down to his range to shoot can I open carry (since I'm using it for a sporting purpose)? Does this apply to carrying while fishing in one of his ponds? Thanks again guys, Don

I think the best thing for you is to see if being at your parents' property constitutes the property being under your control. Another user mentioned having a house key as proof that the property is indeed under your control. I don't think this means that you exclusively or completely control the property, just that you have some control of it. If you were out there alone and would have the authority to ask someone to leave on behalf of your parents, I would argue that you are in control of the property. Again, not a lawyer, but I really don't think it's a huge thing. Especially on 270 acres, I'm assuming in rural Texas. You'd be hard pressed to find a Texas sheriff that doesn't support the 2nd Amendment rights of a law-abiding citizen. I know your goal is to understand and abide by the law. If you want to give yourself something to CYA, get your parents to write on a piece of paper: "The End is authorized control of the property at 12345 Main St, Somewhere, TX 99999" and date and sign it. Personally, I think that part is unnecessary, but it would provide you written proof in the completely unlikely event of law enforcement approaching you while on their property, and the even more unlikely event that the deputy would arrest you, the even more unlikely event that the local prosecutor would file charges, and the even more unlikely event that the judge wouldn't throw it out, and the even more unlikely event that you would actually be convicted.

A property being "under your control" is not defined in the Texas Penal Code. Thus, in the court of law, they will use a reasonable definition that would most benefit the accused (as opposed to most benefiting the prosecutor).

TL;DR: Carry on.