Shoot or not to shoot...

[TX Rancher]

During a previous thread, the discussion turned to protecting your property by the use of deadly force. In that particular thread, the discussion was about some tools taken from a shed, not attached to the owner’s house, and it was at night.

http://www.texasshooting.com/TexasCHL_F ... sc&start=0

Several folks brought up the point that the discussion was more about should you shoot, not were you legally covered if you shoot.

Some folks said it was ok to shoot since they were stealing your stuff, and the implications were it didn’t really matter what the “value� of the stuff was…you should shoot to send a message to all BG that theft would not be tolerated. This was one end of the spectrum.

The other end felt that no material possessions were worth taking a human life over, no matter how much they cost, or how dependent your livelihood was on them.

A lot of people fell in-between the “Shoot them over a shovel because a line has to be drawn� and “give them the keys to the car because all life is sacred� groups. Please note I am not passing judgment on either side, only stating what I felt the two ends to the continuum were…

To help get a better feel for where folks stand, I’m putting forward the following scenario. It’s based on an actual incident that happened to me a few years ago…

If you are going to respond, please stay within the scenario as posted. If you need clarification on an aspect, ask…I’m trying to keep this as close as possible to the real occurrence. That tends to cut down on the “but it wouldn’t happen that way� discussions since it did happen.

Background information:

You run a small cattle operation with a very small profit margin…when there are profits. You have a 3 stall machine building (steel with 3 car doors, and one regular door…no windows…think 3 stall garage) that’s about 100 ft from your house. Your tools are very important to the ranch operation, and they cost a fair amount of money when compared to your profit margin. You’ve been ripped off once before, and you know the insurance route is a pain, and there’s the deductible to deal with.

It’s dark out (sunset was several hours before) and you are returning to the house from the barn. The barn is ~400 yards away and not really visible from the machine building.

You are on foot, and are carrying your normal carry weapon. In this case let’s assume no long guns, no shotguns, and no 81mm mortars or M-79’s.

As you round the house, you notice the lights are on in the machine shed, which happens periodically since the family thinks electricity is free (and you wonder why your profit margin is so low)…


Enter the scenario:

-You are on the side of the building facing the garage car doors. The regular door entrance is on the side of the building, and you can not see it from where you stand, but you do see the lights are on since the building is a standard steel building, so light spills out from multiple places…

a. Call 911 and wait 45-60 min for the Sheriff to arrive (scenario stops)
b. Head towards the building to turn the lights off (what I did)
c. Call in an air strike, preferably with Napalm and an AC-135 for backup since this is clearly a terrorist incident.

-As you round the corner, you see the door is open, but your family has been known to leave the door open…

a. Call 911 (scenario stops)
b. Draw your weapon and “pie� the door (the tactical condition yellow approach)
c. Walk to the door to close it and turn the lights out (what I did)
d. The air-strike didn’t work, time for the AC-135 to work out
e. Other

-As you make it to the door (either walking or “pie’ing) you see a 20 something male with his hands in your Craftsman chest tool box. He’s rather normal looking build wise (not a razor thin crack-head look nor a body builder). He sees you essentially the same time as you see him. If you “pied� the door, let’s assume he has not seen the weapon yet. The only way this guy can get out is through the door you are standing in. He picks up a ~2ft screw driver and turns towards you. At that moment, he looks more like a scared rabbit then a hardened predator.
He is ~15-20 ft away from you, but your shed is not exactly ready for a white glove inspection, so there’s several things between you and him…one of which is a CJ7 Jeep, so it’s not absolutely clear the coveted “21ft rule� applies in this case. Other then to turn towards you with the screw driver, he has not made any movements or said anything…

a. Put two in the chest and one in the head with additional rounds as required until he’s down and disarmed (shooting to stop, not to kill of course)
b. Back out of the door and get clear of the garage so you can call 911. If your weapon is holstered, you leave it there. If you pied the door, then you re-holstered as you retreated.
c. Back out of the door to call 911. Draw your weapon if you didn’t pie the door.
d. Back out and draw your weapon. Forget about 911, you can ambush the BG as he comes through the door. No need to worry about the 21ft rule since you have increased the distance considerably and are maybe behind cover/concealment.
e. Keep your weapon out of sight and try to de-escalate the situation (remember he hasn’t seen your weapon yet). Drawing to low ready where he can’t see it is part of this option since the Jeep is blocking some of his vision, although it’s questionable he wouldn’t notice the draw
f. Allow him to see the weapon, but don’t point it directly at him
g. Allow him to see the weapon by aiming COM or head…whichever you’re more comfortable with (what I did)
h. Other

Now there are a plethora of directions the scenario could take at this juncture based on the answers listed above. Option "a" ends the scenario.
b, c, & d address retreating while "e" is standing your ground, but not escalating. f & g are escalations with "g" clearly a threat of deadly force.

Now in the actual incident, calling 911 was not an option…the cell phone coverage is so poor on my ranch, I don’t bother to carry my cell, so for the rest of the scenario, let’s assume you do not have phone coverage (which I absolutely don’t around my machine building)

If you retreated or stood your ground, let’s assume there are two likely responses, one the guy drops the screwdriver (what actually happened), and one he doesn’t.

-He retains the screwdriver, but doesn’t move. After several verbal commands to drop it, it’s clear he’s not going to…but he still hasn’t moved

a. Shoot him
b. Don’t shoot and stand your ground
c. Don’t shoot and advance
d. Don’t shoot and retreat
e. other

-Same as above, except he moves towards you and the door…the scenario options are the same (a-d)

-Drops the screwdriver but moves towards you and the door (what actually happened)…your options stay the same

[txinvestigator]

G, then B

He advances towards the door still now unarmed.........Since I don't have cuffs and my handgun is already out, reducing to OC that is buried in my pocket is not really an option.

Believe it or not, I probably allow him to escape rather than fight or shoot him.

[Sly Dog]

I would NEVER use deadly force on a person for stealing/trying to steal my property. The only way I would ever use deadly force is in defense of a innocent victim that was being harmed or attacked "IF" that is the only way I could stop the attack.

I am going to have to agree with txinvestigator's answer 100%.

[Tim the Teacher]

My gun raised and him with no screwdriver in hand...... I give him a chance to leave peaceably. Until I have a direct and immediate threat upon my life I would not shoot.

[stevie_d_64]

Since this takes place in a generally rural environment, and any good rancher is not going to have a long gun outside of arms reach in a senario like this...

I'm with Txi on the whole rules of engagement on this, yet my choice of bang stick is going to be a bit more to the intimidation side of the equation...That way its up to your guy stealing stuff to make the "correct" decision...

But then again, I assume nothing in that regard...

When in doubt, call in the airstrike...Much more satisfying...

[phddan]

Well, lets see,

I am standing in the door way of my garage with my gun drawn on a thief who is holding a 2' long pointed weapon. Phone not an option.

IF he made no movement to make me think he was coming in my direction or to throw the weapon in his hand, I would be telling him in my best drill sargent voice to drop the weapon, dont be stupid etc., etc., and try to get my self in a better position, in case there is another thief inside or out.
If he makes a furtive movement, blam, blam, until threat is stopped.
If he continues to stand there and not escalate, then I have a choice.
Mexican stand off until he drops the weapon and turns around, mexican standoff untill someone from the house comes looking for me, or fire a shot outside at known safe backstop, to draw attention from the house, to make someone come looking for me.
Now if he drops the weapon and comes toward me, blam, blam, until threat is stopped. He made the wrong choice.
Have wife call 911 from house, and wait 45minutes for sheriff to show up.

So when do we find out what you did?

Dan

[portsider44]

G, along with a verbal warning, then B

He advances towards the door still now unarmed.........Since I don't have cuffs and my handgun is already out, reducing to OC that is buried in my pocket is not really an option.

At this point he is advancing towards an armed man (which I would view as a threat to do me harm) & not responding to verbal commands to stop. So he's crazy enough to advance against my warning towards an armed person. He has to be crazy enough to do harm to me or my family. At which point I would shoot to stop the threat.

In my mind the simple theft started the situation, but what got him shot was his failure to submit to commands given & his attempt to flee by knowing he had no fear of going through an armed man. So he wasn't shot over some tools that could be easily replace. He was shoot because his actions were deemed a threat to the man holding the gun.

[MBGuy]

Being that he's not in the house of residence and it's a seperate building and I have no way to call the cops, I'd let him go, but he'd have to go R E A L S L O W...

The feelings afterwards though would be twofold. I'd be glad I didn't kill a young guy that may turn his life around after this scare, but I'd be worried that he'd return armed and not alone.

[Venus Pax]

My general feel for your ranch, based on reading what you wrote, was that you wouldn't assume there was a problem until you actually see the perp.

If I were in your shoes, I would have also gone into my metal building to turn off the lights, irritated that my family members think money grows on trees. I probably would not have assumed it to be anything more than carelessness of my relatives.

Once I saw a trespasser/thief in the act, I would have definitely drawn my weapon and worked my way to a secure location.

You didn't bring up this point, but there is also no way to know that he isn't working alone. I don't want his buddy coming up behind me while I'm having a conversation with the primary thug as to why he's in my shed with his dirty little paws on my tools. Based on what you're telling us, the thief was acting alone, but there's no way to know this when the situation is suddenly upon you.

If he were to drop the screwdriver and head for the door yelling, "AHHHHHHHHH! Chick with a gun!" I would probably let him go, then call the sheriff while watching my property from a house window.

If he advanced toward me, then he chose poorly. I'll protect myself. I made that choice long ago.

He either leaves or I shoot. I'm not doing Mexican stand-off on my own property while I wait for his buddy to bail him out.

[Venus Pax]

double post deleted.

[Hamourkiller]

Advancing against me would get him shot until he stopped advancing. Throwing down the visible weapon does not mean he is unarmed. I cant take the chance he will harm me or mine so the threat must be neutralised.

[HankB]

Rural area, no cell coverage . . . I would not assume the perp is alone . . . (how many rural burglaries are solo operations?)

Unless there were some reason to believe the guy might be my daughter's new boy friend who she sent out to look for tools to fix a broken pipe or something, I believe a compelling argument could be made that it would be prudent to neutralize the known threat and be on the lookout for others.

[Mage34]

If he didn't stop advancing after I told him to stop I would shoot him. If he stopped I would hope he would listen to orders and tell him to get down. I'm not letting someone breaking into my home get away. They will still be there when the police arrive, if there breathing that is up to them. The only reason I say this is becouse my Dad is a cop and we had to deal with retaliation on more than one occasion. I'm not looking over my own sholder in my own home. I don't think I would shoot to get the attention of the house, but my wife is not very observent so she may not notice or hear me whisteling (I can call horses from a 400 acre mountain pasture whisteling) from the shed for some time ssssooooooo.

[XDandy]

Well, in a situation like this there's what I'd like to do and what I probably would have done.

#1 What I would like to do. I would have liked to hold him at gun point and have him empty his pockets. I would then proceed to go through his wallet taking any cash, credit cards, or identification he had on him. Then I would let him go, knowing what it feels like to have your personal property taken from you. I know, I couldn't do it because of repercussions, but man, it just seems like the 'eye for an eye' thing to do.

#2 What I would have done. I probably would have done exactly what you did. Go to turn off the light, see the perp, draw my gun and hold it on him. Then I would get out of the door way, keeping my distance from the kid with my gun still pointed at him. With no way to call the cops and not wanting to stand there and have a staring contest with this kid until my wife noticed I was missing, I probably would have given a stern warning about what will happen if I ever see him on my property again, and let him go. I just couldn't bring myself to shoot a kid until I felt like he had intentions of advancing on me or until I saw him produce anykind of weapon. At that point I would have fired to prevent the situation going any further. But if all he wants to do is s-l-o-w-l-y walk out the door and get off my property, I would have let him do it.

[Humanphibian]

Failing to drop the screwdriver and having that "deer in the headlight" look could very well be the result of sensory overload and/or fixation on that muzzle (if it was visible). There is also a good chance he was emptying his bladder as well

Standing still until he realizes the magnitude of the situation, and drops the screwdriver....this buys him a ticket out the door.

Now, if he advanced even one step with weapon in hand.......