Incapable of civil discourse and debate

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Vol Texan
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Re: Incapable of civil discourse and debate

#31

Post by Vol Texan »

Cedar Park Dad wrote:
fickman wrote: I talked to her about Constitutional rights vs. privileges; I talked to her about how we let everybody vote even though they do great harm when they are uninformed, but we cannot give a literacy test. . ..
IIRC but felons can't vote in Texas.

(snip)

So there are limits to everything, and everything should be discussed.
Comparing the 'right to vote' with the 'right to keep and bear arms' is a red herring. They are simply not comparable. The RKBA is a right enshrined in our constitution, but there is no 'right to vote'. Sure, what you've posted indicates who CAN vote, but it is not a right such as is the RKBA, and any comparison of the two is just a distraction.

I cannot take credit for the writing below - instead I'll defer to Neal Boortz for the explanation. Note that some of Boortz's comments are not always within the guidelines of this forum, so in addition to posting a link to his full article here, I'm including the relevant text below (emphasis below is mine, however):
Let's make our first stop at Wikipedia. We'll make two stops. First, the entry for "Voting rights in the United States." There you will find the following sentence:

There is no "right to vote" explicitly stated in the U.S. Constitution, but only that they cannot be denied based solely on the aforementioned qualifications, however, the "right to vote" may be denied for any other reason (i.e. being convicted of a felony).

Next stop .. .the Wikipedia entry for "Sufferage." A subsection of this entry covers the history of suffrage (the vote) in the United States. Here you go:

In the United States, suffrage is determined by the separate states, not federally. There is no national "right to vote". The states and the people have changed the U.S. Constitution five times to disallow states from limiting suffrage, thereby expanding it.
  • 15th Amendment (1870): no law may restrict any race from voting
  • 19th Amendment (1920): no law may restrict any sex from voting
  • 23rd Amendment (1961): residents of the District of Columbiacan vote for the President and Vice-President
  • 24th Amendment (1964): neither Congress nor the states may condition the right to vote in federal elections on payment of a poll tax or other type of tax
  • 26th Amendment (1971): no law may restrict those 18 years of age or older from voting because of their age
Moving right along now, here's an article written by Congressman Jesse Jackson Jr. entitled "The Right to Vote." Jackson writes: "And yet the right to vote is not a fundamental right in our Constitution." I guess that you folks who have been sending in those emails are right, and the Congressman is wrong ... right? Jackson has introduced a voting rights amendment in the congress. Now just why would he need to do that if the right already existed?

I'm not through with you yet. Let's go to Michael C. Dorf. Dorf is the Vice Dean and professor of law at Columbia University. Dorf wrote this article entitled "We Need A Constitutional Right to Vote in Presidential Elections." Tell me, would a law professor write a column calling for a constitutional right to vote if we already had one?

Final stop ... the complete text of the decision of the Supreme Court of the United States in the case of George W. Bush, et al., Petitioners v. Albert Gore, Jr., et al. Take a look at Section II, Paragraph B. The very first sentence there reads: "The individual citizen has no federal constitutional right to vote for electors for the President of the United States unless and until the state legislature chooses a statewide election as the means to implement its power to appoint members of the Electoral College. U.S. Const., Art.II, 1."
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Re: Incapable of civil discourse and debate

#32

Post by Cedar Park Dad »

Wait did you just say the right to vote is less important than the right to bear arms?
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Re: Incapable of civil discourse and debate

#33

Post by Charles L. Cotton »

Well, it seems impossible to get this thread back on topic, but I'll try once more before closing it. Keep arguing irrelevant issues and ignore Grisham/OCT, Watkins/OCTC rather than condemn them and the general public will continue to paint all open-carry supporters with the same broad brush.

Chas.

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Re: Incapable of civil discourse and debate

#34

Post by Cedar Park Dad »

Charles L. Cotton wrote:Well, it seems impossible to get this thread back on topic, but I'll try once more before closing it. Keep arguing irrelevant issues and ignore Grisham/OCT, Watkins/OCTC rather than condemn them and the general public will continue to paint all open-carry supporters with the same broad brush.

Chas.

Sorry.

What is a better suggested course of action vs. what has been done to date?
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Re: Incapable of civil discourse and debate

#35

Post by Charles L. Cotton »

Cedar Park Dad wrote:
Charles L. Cotton wrote:Well, it seems impossible to get this thread back on topic, but I'll try once more before closing it. Keep arguing irrelevant issues and ignore Grisham/OCT, Watkins/OCTC rather than condemn them and the general public will continue to paint all open-carry supporters with the same broad brush.

Chas.

Sorry.

What is a better suggested course of action vs. what has been done to date?
I honestly don't think anything will change the tactics used by the leadership (3 guys). My hope is that calls for civil discourse will reach members of those organizations and, if not, let the general public realize those folks are not representative of gun-owning Texans.

Chas.
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Re: Incapable of civil discourse and debate

#36

Post by mojo84 »

I've been posting in reply to some of their Facebook comments and actually getting some "likes". Was a little surprised as I used some direct and pointed comments to let them know they are doing more damage than good.

Then I just stumbled on to this.http://www.brettsanders.me/2015/01/the- ... t-doubled/" onclick="window.open(this.href);return false;

Just because two bills have been filled they think the probability had of OC passing has doubled.
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Re: Incapable of civil discourse and debate

#37

Post by E.Marquez »

Charles L. Cotton wrote:
Cedar Park Dad wrote:
Charles L. Cotton wrote:Well, it seems impossible to get this thread back on topic, but I'll try once more before closing it. Keep arguing irrelevant issues and ignore Grisham/OCT, Watkins/OCTC rather than condemn them and the general public will continue to paint all open-carry supporters with the same broad brush.

Chas.

Sorry.

What is a better suggested course of action vs. what has been done to date?
I honestly don't think anything will change the tactics used by the leadership (3 guys). My hope is that calls for civil discourse will reach members of those organizations and, if not, let the general public realize those folks are not representative of gun-owning Texans.

Chas.
Chas
How would you suggest NTCGooT ( Non theatrical and Confrontational Gun Owners of Texas) publically denounce the minority speaking the loudest :headscratch

You can not have a public conversation on any forum where those three groups are present .. You get pounced on as a "butter" , "anti", ect ect.

If we denounce them in a forum such as yours, well we are preaching to the same folks that already get it.

Start the conversation on FB and it devolves to nonsense in minutes.

What do you suggest to publicly distance ourselves from the fringe and ensure the mainstream Texan and for sure the legislators know WE are the majority, even though we don't get media face time.
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Re: Incapable of civil discourse and debate

#38

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Still delusional. I can think of no other term that applies.
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Re: Incapable of civil discourse and debate

#39

Post by suthdj »

mojo84 wrote:I've been posting in reply to some of their Facebook comments and actually getting some "likes". Was a little surprised as I used some direct and pointed comments to let them know they are doing more damage than good.

Then I just stumbled on to this.http://www.brettsanders.me/2015/01/the- ... t-doubled/" onclick="window.open(this.href);return false;

Just because two bills have been filled they think the probability had of OC passing has doubled.
2x0=0, right?
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Re: Incapable of civil discourse and debate

#40

Post by Pawpaw »

Charles L. Cotton wrote:I honestly don't think anything will change the tactics used by the leadership (3 guys). My hope is that calls for civil discourse will reach members of those organizations and, if not, let the general public realize those folks are not representative of gun-owning Texans.

Chas.
3 guys? I'm aware of CJ and Watkins, but unsure who is #3.

I guess you're talking about whoever runs CATI.
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Re: Incapable of civil discourse and debate

#41

Post by Charles L. Cotton »

Pawpaw wrote:
Charles L. Cotton wrote:I honestly don't think anything will change the tactics used by the leadership (3 guys). My hope is that calls for civil discourse will reach members of those organizations and, if not, let the general public realize those folks are not representative of gun-owning Texans.

Chas.
I guess you're talking about whoever runs CATI.
Yep, but he's mild in comparison, very mild.

Chas.
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Re: Incapable of civil discourse and debate

#42

Post by fickman »

As I said in another thread, we're dealing with people that aren't content to open carry, they want to open carry in your face!

Also, they have no long term strategy, no understanding of a stepping stone approach, and no understanding of how to work our government for their advantage, make allies, and use groups with a similar agenda to build momentum. They are, in effect, using the nuclear option of "my way or the highway", and "I want it all now, or nothing."

So. . . for now. . . it looks like "nothing" is exactly what they'll get.
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Re: Incapable of civil discourse and debate

#43

Post by canvasbck »

Charles,
Please tell me that you and or Alice will be testifying on SB17 to offset the lunatic fringe. It is pretty clear that OCTC, OCT, and CATI intend to testify AGAINST this bill.

For anyone who didn't already know, this is very telling that they are not willing to budge one inch off of their position regarding unlicensed open carry or nothing. My number one choice was unlicensed carry (I've changed my position since Kory Watkins did such a marvelous job of proving that absence of a background check can be horrendous, MDA thanks you Mr. Watkins), and second choice was HB910, wich is this bill. Looks like the KW's/CJG's of the world want to make sure that none of them pass.
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Re: Incapable of civil discourse and debate

#44

Post by Charles L. Cotton »

canvasbck wrote:Charles,
Please tell me that you and or Alice will be testifying on SB17 to offset the lunatic fringe. It is pretty clear that OCTC, OCT, and CATI intend to testify AGAINST this bill.

For anyone who didn't already know, this is very telling that they are not willing to budge one inch off of their position regarding unlicensed open carry or nothing. My number one choice was unlicensed carry (I've changed my position since Kory Watkins did such a marvelous job of proving that absence of a background check can be horrendous, MDA thanks you Mr. Watkins), and second choice was HB910, wich is this bill. Looks like the KW's/CJG's of the world want to make sure that none of them pass.
Alice will testify, but I'm not going to Austin unless something changes. If many people answer CATI's request, then the hearing will be a zoo. If I do go, I'll probably testify only on campus-carry, but even that's unnecessary. Campus-carry is in the bag in the Senate; the House is where the fight will be on SB11.

I'm trying very hard not to go to Austin this session to testify in a hearing. Everyone knows what I'm going to say so unless I'm needed to explain legal/technical points, I just take up committee time.

Chas.
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Re: Incapable of civil discourse and debate

#45

Post by canvasbck »

One good bit of news, the OCDO crowd is getting behind SB17/346. They are accepting a "compromize". This is mainly good news because a good number of those guys are heavily involved with OCT. Maybe........just maybe, Watkins can be detained during the hearing and civil discussion can break out.

I know...........WAY too optimistic.
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