Present CHL to Border Patrol?

[joe817]

Legally, a CBP agent does not defined as a 'peace officer' in Texas. The law states you must present it to a 'magistrate' (aka Judge defined in 2.09.00) or 'peace officer' when asked for ID.

GC §411.205. REQUIREMENT TO DISPLAY LICENSE. If a license holder is
carrying a handgun on or about the license holder’s person when a magistrate or
a peace officer demands that the license holder display identification, the license
holder shall display both the license holder’s driver’s license or identification
certificate issued by the department and the license holder’s handgun license.

However, I probably would, depending on their demeanor, if they were requesting ID. Better to let them know and avoid any issues. Others may choose not to unless asked about weapons.

If I'm reading what TCLOSE says a CBP agent IS a recognized Peace Officer:
"The Texas Code of Criminal Procedure, § 2.122, recognizes specific criminal investigators of the United States as having authority to enforce selected state laws by virtue of their authority. Prior training will be evaluated and approved by the Commission to insure it meets current training requirements.
...(15) A Customs and Border Protection Officer or Border Patrol Agent of the United States Customs and Border Protection or an immigration enforcement agent, or deportation officer of the Department of Homeland Security;..."

http://www.tcole.texas.gov/content/out- ... e-officers" onclick="window.open(this.href);return false;

I admit I may be misinterpreting this. If I am, my bad.

[Keith B]

Legally, a CBP agent does not defined as a 'peace officer' in Texas. The law states you must present it to a 'magistrate' (aka Judge defined in 2.09.00) or 'peace officer' when asked for ID.

GC §411.205. REQUIREMENT TO DISPLAY LICENSE. If a license holder is
carrying a handgun on or about the license holder’s person when a magistrate or
a peace officer demands that the license holder display identification, the license
holder shall display both the license holder’s driver’s license or identification
certificate issued by the department and the license holder’s handgun license.

However, I probably would, depending on their demeanor, if they were requesting ID. Better to let them know and avoid any issues. Others may choose not to unless asked about weapons.

If I'm reading what TCLOSE says a CBP agent IS a recognized Peace Officer:
"The Texas Code of Criminal Procedure, § 2.122, recognizes specific criminal investigators of the United States as having authority to enforce selected state laws by virtue of their authority. Prior training will be evaluated and approved by the Commission to insure it meets current training requirements.
...(15) A Customs and Border Protection Officer or Border Patrol Agent of the United States Customs and Border Protection or an immigration enforcement agent, or deportation officer of the Department of Homeland Security;..."

http://www.tcole.texas.gov/content/out- ... e-officers" onclick="window.open(this.href);return false;

I admit I may be misinterpreting this. If I am, my bad.

No, they are not listed as peace officer's per http://www.statutes.legis.state.tx.us/D ... 2.htm#2.12" onclick="window.open(this.href);return false;

Art. 2.12. WHO ARE PEACE OFFICERS. The following are peace officers:
(1) sheriffs, their deputies, and those reserve deputies who hold a permanent peace officer license issued under Chapter 1701, Occupations Code;
(2) constables, deputy constables, and those reserve deputy constables who hold a permanent peace officer license issued under Chapter 1701, Occupations Code;
(3) marshals or police officers of an incorporated city, town, or village, and those reserve municipal police officers who hold a permanent peace officer license issued under Chapter 1701, Occupations Code;
(4) rangers and officers commissioned by the Public Safety Commission and the Director of the Department of Public Safety;
(5) investigators of the district attorneys', criminal district attorneys', and county attorneys' offices;
(6) law enforcement agents of the Texas Alcoholic Beverage Commission;
(7) each member of an arson investigating unit commissioned by a city, a county, or the state;
(8) officers commissioned under Section 37.081, Education Code, or Subchapter E, Chapter 51, Education Code;
(9) officers commissioned by the General Services Commission;
(10) law enforcement officers commissioned by the Parks and Wildlife Commission;
(11) airport police officers commissioned by a city with a population of more than 1.18 million located primarily in a county with a population of 2 million or more that operates an airport that serves commercial air carriers;
(12) airport security personnel commissioned as peace officers by the governing body of any political subdivision of this state, other than a city described by Subdivision (11), that operates an airport that serves commercial air carriers;
(13) municipal park and recreational patrolmen and security officers;
(14) security officers and investigators commissioned as peace officers by the comptroller;
(15) officers commissioned by a water control and improvement district under Section 49.216, Water Code;
(16) officers commissioned by a board of trustees under Chapter 54, Transportation Code;
(17) investigators commissioned by the Texas Medical Board;
(18) officers commissioned by:
(A) the board of managers of the Dallas County Hospital District, the Tarrant County Hospital District, the Bexar County Hospital District, or the El Paso County Hospital District under Section 281.057, Health and Safety Code;
(B) the board of directors of the Ector County Hospital District under Section 1024.117, Special District Local Laws Code; and
(C) the board of directors of the Midland County Hospital District of Midland County, Texas, under Section 1061.121, Special District Local Laws Code;
(19) county park rangers commissioned under Subchapter E, Chapter 351, Local Government Code;
(20) investigators employed by the Texas Racing Commission;
(21) officers commissioned under Chapter 554, Occupations Code;
(22) officers commissioned by the governing body of a metropolitan rapid transit authority under Section 451.108, Transportation Code, or by a regional transportation authority under Section 452.110, Transportation Code;
(23) investigators commissioned by the attorney general under Section 402.009, Government Code;
(24) security officers and investigators commissioned as peace officers under Chapter 466, Government Code;
(25) an officer employed by the Department of State Health Services under Section 431.2471, Health and Safety Code;
(26) officers appointed by an appellate court under Subchapter F, Chapter 53, Government Code;
(27) officers commissioned by the state fire marshal under Chapter 417, Government Code;
(28) an investigator commissioned by the commissioner of insurance under Section 701.104, Insurance Code;
(29) apprehension specialists and inspectors general commissioned by the Texas Juvenile Justice Department as officers under Sections 242.102 and 243.052, Human Resources Code;
(30) officers appointed by the inspector general of the Texas Department of Criminal Justice under Section 493.019, Government Code;
(31) investigators commissioned by the Texas Commission on Law Enforcement under Section 1701.160, Occupations Code;
(32) commission investigators commissioned by the Texas Private Security Board under Section 1702.061(f), Occupations Code;
(33) the fire marshal and any officers, inspectors, or investigators commissioned by an emergency services district under Chapter 775, Health and Safety Code;
(34) officers commissioned by the State Board of Dental Examiners under Section 254.013, Occupations Code, subject to the limitations imposed by that section;
(35) investigators commissioned by the Texas Juvenile Justice Department as officers under Section 221.011, Human Resources Code; and
(36) the fire marshal and any related officers, inspectors, or investigators commissioned by a county under Subchapter B, Chapter 352, Local Government Code.

[joe817]

Ok, I see it. Thank you. In reading on down Art. 2:

"Art. 2.122. SPECIAL INVESTIGATORS.

(a) The following named criminal investigators of the United States shall not be deemed peace officers, but shall have the powers of arrest, search, and seizure under the laws of this state as to felony offenses only:
.
.
.
(c) A Customs and Border Protection Officer or Border Patrol Agent of the United States Customs and Border Protection or an immigration enforcement agent or deportation officer of the Department of Homeland Security is not a peace officer under the laws of this state..."

Note: Have left a LOT of stuff out. But not important. Point well made Keith.

[dcphoto]

"Are you an American citizen?"
"Si Senor." I wonder how that would turn out.

Turns out fine. One of my former co-workers is a US citizen, but his first language is Spanish. He usually converses in Spanish at checkpoints, and has no more hassle than anyone else.

[JSThane]

Long version, an agent can ask you any question he or she likes. The one you -have- to answer is "Are you an American citizen?" If not, then they now have to find out if you're legal. That's it.

Just to qubble on that a bit, do you "have" to answer that question? I understand that it's the officers job to determine the probable answer to that question, but I wasn't under the impression that you have to say anything.

Any if you do have to answer, how does a verbal answer actually justify "proof"? Asking for ID or papers is a much more accurate means of establishing citizenship.

Again, I'm not saying make a hassle.. I'm asking what is actually required. No crime has been committed. They're not actively investigating something. What gives the BP a special clause that forces you to answer that question?

I don't have my reference handy, but it's essentially that citizenship "shall be established to the agent's satisfaction." Normally, this amounts to "Are you an American citizen?" "Yes."

Requesting ID can be useful if you suspect the person is lying, but not always conclusive. It's most useful if the person presents a false ID, or if a prior deportation pops up in record checks run from a valid ID. Either way, it's a step beyond the normal. And yes, both happen with fair regularity, at least around here.

[cb1000rider]

I don't have my reference handy, but it's essentially that citizenship "shall be established to the agent's satisfaction." Normally, this amounts to "Are you an American citizen?" "Yes."

Maybe we're talking about different things. I'm talking about inland checkpoints. I know that the on-border checkpoints are a different matter.
I can't find any requirement at inland check points. Is your right to remain silent somehow suspended at these checkpoints?

[JSThane]

I don't have my reference handy, but it's essentially that citizenship "shall be established to the agent's satisfaction." Normally, this amounts to "Are you an American citizen?" "Yes."

Maybe we're talking about different things. I'm talking about inland checkpoints. I know that the on-border checkpoints are a different matter.
I can't find any requirement at inland check points. Is your right to remain silent somehow suspended at these checkpoints?

Oh, you can say nothing at all, and some folks do, but that just means the agent must establish citizenship some other way, which usually winds up being a hassle for both motorist and agent. Remember, too, mere citizenship information is NOT incriminating one way or the other; to be deported and/or prosecuted (which are two separate things), not only must a non-US citizenship be established, but also that the non-citizen is here -illegally-. As one more aside, non-citizens here legally are required by law to carry their card with them and present it to immigration officers/agents when requested, whether they're Lawfully Admitted for Permanent Residence or simply on a visitor's visa. Citizens have no such ID requirement.

[anygunanywhere]

"Are you an American citizen?"
"Si Senor." I wonder how that would turn out.

That tends to annoy them. Personal experience. Mrs Anygun was annoyed too since she was in the vehicle when the incident occurred.

[J.R.@A&M]

I had a similar experience of being followed for miles by USBP. It was in a rural part of northern Webb County. I was driving from Laredo to the hill country deer lease in the family Dodge Caravan. It was daylight so I got to watch him in my rear view for a while before he finally turned on his lights and pulled me over. I assume he tracked me just to see my reaction (the same way they sometimes ask odd questions at the checkpoint).

He asked the same questions that they would ask at the checkpoint: 1) Are you a U.S. citizen? 2) Is there anybody else in the vehicle with you? I think they pulled me over because it was a minivan and because not that many people drive through that area. I did have multiple firearms in the car, but because I was headed to the deer lease, I didn't give that a second thought. It was also pre-CHL so I wasn't concerned with the OP's question.

[couzin]

Having worked on a border project, I got to know a bunch of officers in TX, NM, AZ, and CA. They are not evil and they are not trying to trample your rights. It is ridiculous when jerks show their behind with these provocation videos. For crying out loud just say you are a citizen and get on down the road. It ain't that hard. BTW - yes they are Federal law enforcement and as such they can search, arrest, and pursue. And - they also can apprehend someone breaking State laws (they just turn em over to local law enforcement for charge/prosecution). If stopped by any Federal Law enforcement it might be a good idea to simply tell them you are armed and have a concealed carry license. Again - it ain't that hard.

[Wolverine]

I never do. It just opens up a can of worms they aren't used to dealing with. They aren't looking for citizenship anyway, just drugs. We need to stop this little game about CBP not on the border pretending to enforce immigration laws and make them a uniformed division of the DEA.

I'm not obligated to tell a Federale about my CHL and there's a lot more potential downside than upside to volunteering unnecessary personal information.

[cb1000rider]

Having worked on a border project, I got to know a bunch of officers in TX, NM, AZ, and CA. They are not evil and they are not trying to trample your rights. It is ridiculous when jerks show their behind with these provocation videos. For crying out loud just say you are a citizen and get on down the road. It ain't that hard. BTW - yes they are Federal law enforcement and as such they can search, arrest, and pursue. And - they also can apprehend someone breaking State laws (they just turn em over to local law enforcement for charge/prosecution). If stopped by any Federal Law enforcement it might be a good idea to simply tell them you are armed and have a concealed carry license. Again - it ain't that hard.

I'm with you.. it's real easy not to cause trouble. But the reality is that they're not "allowed" to do anything about someone who remains silent, but they often do...
And what's the point? Is saying "yes" to that question really enough to establish citizenship? I think not... It's not a stop about residency, it's a stop about eyeballing your vehicle and maybe slowing you down enough for a quick sniff from the drug dog - and having that happen on THIS side of the border isn't legal. America doesn't start 100 miles from the border. Sure, it catches some bad guys... And sure, it's a minor inconvenience, but we could catch a lot more bad guys if we were to trample a few more rights.

The world isn't perfect...

[jmra]

Having worked on a border project, I got to know a bunch of officers in TX, NM, AZ, and CA. They are not evil and they are not trying to trample your rights. It is ridiculous when jerks show their behind with these provocation videos. For crying out loud just say you are a citizen and get on down the road. It ain't that hard. BTW - yes they are Federal law enforcement and as such they can search, arrest, and pursue. And - they also can apprehend someone breaking State laws (they just turn em over to local law enforcement for charge/prosecution). If stopped by any Federal Law enforcement it might be a good idea to simply tell them you are armed and have a concealed carry license. Again - it ain't that hard.

I'm with you.. it's real easy not to cause trouble. But the reality is that they're not "allowed" to do anything about someone who remains silent, but they often do...
And what's the point? Is saying "yes" to that question really enough to establish citizenship? I think not... It's not a stop about residency, it's a stop about eyeballing your vehicle and maybe slowing you down enough for a quick sniff from the drug dog - and having that happen on THIS side of the border isn't legal. America doesn't start 100 miles from the border. Sure, it catches some bad guys... And sure, it's a minor inconvenience, but we could catch a lot more bad guys if we were to trample a few more rights.

The world isn't perfect...

I've never been pulled over by BP. I have gone through the check points. My approach has been to lower all the windows as I approach and wear an appropriate smile. Most times I don't make it to a complete stop before being waived on, the few times I have a simple "yep" response gets us moving along. As a side note, in my 35 years of driving I don't recall ever having any type of LEO ask for consent to search my vehicle or ask if I had a firearm. Of course it's been over 30 years since my last speeding ticket.

[Dadtodabone]

Having worked on a border project, I got to know a bunch of officers in TX, NM, AZ, and CA. They are not evil and they are not trying to trample your rights. It is ridiculous when jerks show their behind with these provocation videos. For crying out loud just say you are a citizen and get on down the road. It ain't that hard. BTW - yes they are Federal law enforcement and as such they can search, arrest, and pursue. And - they also can apprehend someone breaking State laws (they just turn em over to local law enforcement for charge/prosecution). If stopped by any Federal Law enforcement it might be a good idea to simply tell them you are armed and have a concealed carry license. Again - it ain't that hard.

I'm with you.. it's real easy not to cause trouble. But the reality is that they're not "allowed" to do anything about someone who remains silent, but they often do...
And what's the point? Is saying "yes" to that question really enough to establish citizenship? I think not... It's not a stop about residency, it's a stop about eyeballing your vehicle and maybe slowing you down enough for a quick sniff from the drug dog - and having that happen on THIS side of the border isn't legal. America doesn't start 100 miles from the border. Sure, it catches some bad guys... And sure, it's a minor inconvenience, but we could catch a lot more bad guys if we were to trample a few more rights.

The world isn't perfect...

Such was my experience.
http://texaschlforum.com/viewtopic.php?f=83&t=68698

[TresHuevos]

Having worked on a border project, I got to know a bunch of officers in TX, NM, AZ, and CA. They are not evil and they are not trying to trample your rights. It is ridiculous when jerks show their behind with these provocation videos. For crying out loud just say you are a citizen and get on down the road. It ain't that hard. BTW - yes they are Federal law enforcement and as such they can search, arrest, and pursue. And - they also can apprehend someone breaking State laws (they just turn em over to local law enforcement for charge/prosecution). If stopped by any Federal Law enforcement it might be a good idea to simply tell them you are armed and have a concealed carry license. Again - it ain't that hard.

Welp, it ain't that hard to respect my fourth amendment rights and allow me to travel freely in my own country is it? I used to not care too much about the checkpoints until I was aggressively questioned at the checkpoint in Sierra Blanca one day. Heck, I even brought them three dozen doughnuts from Krispy Kreme one morning on my way through. Now I have about two acres of white fourth point of contact they can kiss when I go through one. It is in no way shape or form about immigration status anymore. At the time of US vs. Martinez it may have been but it isn't now. If it's about immigration then they need to be on the border. Period. And before you try and tell me the border is secure and we don't need anymore officers there I invite you to take your family camping on the border for a night. If you do, please leave your firearms at home, because you know, it's safe.