Present CHL to Border Patrol?

[HadEmAll]

On a recent trip to Big Bend National Park I got followed by a Border Patrol vehicle for about 10 miles. From outside the Park to a visitor center inside the Park. It was after sunset, and pretty much pitch black. I knew he was back there, but didn't know he was Border Patrol, or following me. I thought it was just another late arriver to the Park.

He pulled in close behind me as I stopped at the (closed) visitor center and turned on his red and blue lights. I rolled down the window, kept my hands on the wheel, and waited. He approached cautiously, identified himself as US Border Patrol, and asked if I was a US citizen. I said "Yes" and waited for him to ask for ID.

He never did. I was waiting for it, and was debating about presenting the CHL, as that is Texas, and he is Federal. I was carrying a .357 mag revolver in a gunpack at 12:00, a .38 snub in my left front pants pocket, and had another .357 in a tote on the passenger front seat.

We had a short conversation about me looking for a place to spend the night, until Park visitor centers opened next mornng, and he again asked me if I was a US citizen, to which I again said "Yes".

He left, and I made my way to a campground in the Park with after hours self-registration, (46 miles away).

I'm still not sure what I'd have done if he asked for ID. If I had decided to present CHL, I'd have definitely volunteered that I had the firearms, and their locations.

My question is, "Would YOU have presented your CHL along with other Identification, if asked by a Federal, not state or local law enforcement officer, such as this Border Patrol officer?"

[Keith B]

Legally, a CBP agent does not defined as a 'peace officer' in Texas. The law states you must present it to a 'magistrate' (aka Judge defined in 2.09.00) or 'peace officer' when asked for ID.

GC §411.205. REQUIREMENT TO DISPLAY LICENSE. If a license holder is
carrying a handgun on or about the license holder’s person when a magistrate or
a peace officer demands that the license holder display identification, the license
holder shall display both the license holder’s driver’s license or identification
certificate issued by the department and the license holder’s handgun license.

However, I probably would, depending on their demeanor, if they were requesting ID. Better to let them know and avoid any issues. Others may choose not to unless asked about weapons.

[Charlies.Contingency]

I would, but I never get stopped by border patrol. I drive slow to conserve fuel anyway, so I take the back roads and avoid those notorious check points everybody complains about. I don't think most BP have much interest in a fluorescent white man of Eastern European decent. I'm not sure why, but they always stop my buddies, something about 6 Hispanic men crunched into a small pick-up apparently attracts attention, they always take forever on taco runs.

[TresHuevos]

I never do. It just opens up a can of worms they aren't used to dealing with. They aren't looking for citizenship anyway, just drugs. We need to stop this little game about CBP not on the border pretending to enforce immigration laws and make them a uniformed division of the DEA.

[Charlies.Contingency]

I never do. It just opens up a can of worms they aren't used to dealing with. They aren't looking for citizenship anyway, just drugs. We need to stop this little game about CBP not on the border pretending to enforce immigration laws and make them a uniformed division of the DEA.

I wouldn't say that is not 100%, those guys are out catching roaming illegals dozens of miles from the border. But yeah, it's largely drugs they're getting. What's one illegal roaming around El Paso? Not a whole lot to them... What's a car trunk full of pot? I'm sure you know where they will dump their resources........

[dcphoto]

I've been told by agents that it is their policy to not ask for ID at interior checkpoints or during stops. That being said, I have the same question. I don't think I'd show my CHL if asked for ID.

[cb1000rider]

I'm curious, what was he reasonably suspicious of that he needed to stop you? IE - why did he tell you that you were stopped?

3 guns.. impressive!

They aren't looking for citizenship anyway, just drugs. We need to stop this little game about CBP not on the border pretending to enforce immigration laws and make them a uniformed division of the DEA.

Completely agree.

[kg5ie]

I don't think he was stopped. I believe the BP agent lit him up (for traffic safety) after he voluntarily stopped at the closed ranger station. I would have offered the CHL, but I doubt he would have asked for ID with no probable cause. You never know though.

[JSThane]

I've been told by agents that it is their policy to not ask for ID at interior checkpoints or during stops. That being said, I have the same question. I don't think I'd show my CHL if asked for ID.

First I've ever heard of this.

With regards to "interior enforcement," yes, BP does do immigration enforcement in the "interior," up to 25 air miles from the border. The highway checkpoints are indeed there primarily for citizenship purposes. Yes, they can and will ask for ID, if they think the situation warrants it. No, it doesn't close down if the dog handler takes a sick day.

The reason the checkpoints catch a lot more drugs than people is due to one reason: dope is easier to hide than a living person, so more people think they can get away with smuggling it through. The illegal aliens are usually dropped off several miles before the point, and made to walk around it in the boonies by the smugglers, then maybe picked up again later (or sometimes never).

Were it not for the checkpoints (and I have major personal problems with them, even as I defend them), smuggling persons further into the interior would be much, -much- easier.

[jmra]

http://www.immigrationpolicy.org/just-f ... s-overview
If you so desire you can tell them to go pound salt. I'm a little more diplomatic.

[cb1000rider]

If you so desire you can tell them to go pound salt. I'm a little more diplomatic.

Correct, but bring a recording device. Expect hassle.

[JSThane]

If you so desire you can tell them to go pound salt. I'm a little more diplomatic.

Correct, but bring a recording device. Expect hassle.

Better yet, be polite, and don't make youtube channels showing what a jerk you are. I hate those.

Long version, an agent can ask you any question he or she likes. The one you -have- to answer is "Are you an American citizen?" If not, then they now have to find out if you're legal. That's it.

Short version, don't be a jerk.

My version, if you don't want to answer any other questions, explain so. The agents will, by-and-large, respect that. And if one doesn't, request a supervisor, immediately. Trust me, -they- know, or ought to know, their own legal limitations at -least- as well as you do. Don't pull the youtube thing like so many folks do. If you do have a recording, use it in your complaint; don't publish it. I see FAR too many idjits who think they can show how superior they are to BP, cops, etc., who often don't have any clue what the law and Constitution actually say, nor what legal precedents have been set.

Kind of a sore spot with me, really...

[HadEmAll]

I'm curious, what was he reasonably suspicious of that he needed to stop you? IE - why did he tell you that you were stopped?

He started following me when I left the Stillwell store, about 10 miles outside the Park. I had driven back there after my first stop at the closed Persimmon Gap entry station, because I knew Stillwell's had camping spots available. When I got to Stillwell's I found it also totally blacked out, so headed back to the Park. Never even got out of my vehicle at Stillwell's. I saw a vehicle pull out a few hundred yards behind me, and like I said, just thought it was another late traveler. When that vehicle's lights disappeared, I just thought they had turned off somewhere. It was actually him turning off his lights.

So he followed me back to the Persimmon Gap station in the park, where he lit me up in the empty parking lot after I had stopped to call the family to let them know I had gotten to Big Bend okay. He followed me 10 miles with no lights on. Surprised he didn't hit any of the javelina I encountered a few times on the way.

Out conversation was very short. All he asked me was if I was a US citizen. Twice. His first, and last questions. I was tired (400 miles of driving plus another 100 after I got there trying to find a place to sleep until morning. I had also driven past Stillwell's earlier to Black Gap Wildlife Management Area, but found it closed due to a hunt), and irked about being lit up, so right after I told him "Yes, I'm a US citizen" I told him all I was doing was trying to find a place to sleep until morning. I didn't ask why he had followed me, or why he lit me up. I just wanted the situation over. I was damned tired of driving, and wanted to contact my family, who was expecting to hear from me.

It was dark, and I never got out of my vehicle, so I don't know for a fact he wasn't a canine unit and he could have had a dog sniffing the car.

I will say that he was polite, professional, and not aggressive in any way.

Why, who knows? Later I did wish I had asked.

This is the first time in 30 years of going to the Big Bend area I've ever been lit up by the Border Patrol, so can't get too worked up about it. I'm glad they are on the job actually.


Thanks for the answers.

[cb1000rider]

Long version, an agent can ask you any question he or she likes. The one you -have- to answer is "Are you an American citizen?" If not, then they now have to find out if you're legal. That's it.

Just to qubble on that a bit, do you "have" to answer that question? I understand that it's the officers job to determine the probable answer to that question, but I wasn't under the impression that you have to say anything.

Any if you do have to answer, how does a verbal answer actually justify "proof"? Asking for ID or papers is a much more accurate means of establishing citizenship.

Again, I'm not saying make a hassle.. I'm asking what is actually required. No crime has been committed. They're not actively investigating something. What gives the BP a special clause that forces you to answer that question?

[Cedar Park Dad]

"Are you an American citizen?"
"Si Senor." I wonder how that would turn out.