HB195 v. HB??/SB??: Are storm clouds gathering?

[G.A. Heath]

Interesting first posts guys, I guess CJ has called for an OC march on this forum?.

When did I do any such thing?

Don't know if you did or didn't, that's the point of "I guess" but who knows. However it's odd that a number of people show up echoing your sentiments for their first post.

Or may the same person that informed me of this post attacking OCT is informing others. Your bias is showing.

I will honestly admit I have a bias against CJ, and OCT leadership. I dislike being called "supposedly progun" because I disagree with someone, I dislike receiving threats, lies, and distortions because I do not agree 100% with a cult of personality. I do not like liars (NAGR) and those that associate with them (OCT). I also have a bias against those who will pull a publicity stunt, then go and say that they may or may not have a license while refusing to prove it, and when confronted with their statements on June 22, 2014 on the Guns Over Texas Radio they wait until after I disengage the communication in order to go to work to make comments that the gun may or may not have been real. This is the same person who continues to attack when he is made aware that a statement here was a guess, not rooted in fact and obviously not meant to be an attack. Perhaps some people feel they are more equal than others, but what ever their problem is I suggest they seek out qualified professional help in their efforts rather than attack those who were in the past willing to work with them.

[Charles L. Cotton]

When are you going to answer my straight forward questions?

Chas.

When I get around to it and have less important things to do.

Now that's funny, really funny. Everyone knows you cannot or will not answer the questions because you can't afford for the truth to be revealed.

Since you are so busy, I'll save you the time of looking up each question I asked. Here's a list:

• Show me where the NRA, TSRA or I have said OCT would only last 6 months?
  What are the OCT “achievements” or accomplishments you referenced?
  • Do you count negative TV and radio news casts an accomplishment?
    Do you think the fiasco in Houston where Quanell X made you look like an incompetent novice on every major network TV station in the Houston viewing area was an "accomplishment?"
    Was it an accomplishment when you went to Oklahoma and openly carried a handgun, then refused to state that you had a license from some state such that your actions were not unlawful?
  Does OCT have anything other than your Facebook page and Facebook closed group?
  What races were you involved in? Give some specifics. Identify the candidates and what OCT did.
  You say open-carry is a "virtue [sic] certainly;" do you mean HB195 unlicensed open-carry?
  Will OCT obtain a “victory” in the 2015 Texas Legislative Session only if HB195 passes?
  You have stated on a few occasions, including Gun Talk Radio, that you tore up your NRA member card and resigned from the organization. Now you claim to be a member. Which is the truth?
  Are you claiming that OCT never did in-store demonstrations with long guns?
  Are you claiming that OCT never did long gun demonstrations on private property?
  Are you now saying that OCT did not issue a statement that it has stopped long gun demonstration?

Here are a couple of unanswered questions that Cedar Park Dad asked you and they are directly related to your claim that OCT never did in-store long gun demonstrations:

• Are you denying Fatman and Snowboots are part of your crew?
  Were you with the guys that went into Target, or were filmed in a Chili’s?

You come to the Forum, spout lies, make a personal attack against me, make absurd claims about OCT, then refuse to provide direct responses to questions related to the issues you raised. Don't post again until you answer these direct questions. If you do, the posts will be deleted.

Chas.

[Charles L. Cotton]

Show me that either of these men are Forum Members? Also, those names are the monikers by which they are now known and this didn't start on the Forum.

So how about answering his questions, since it is directly on point with your current claim that OCT never did in-store demonstrations.

Chas.

"Making fools of yourselves." Not making fools of themselves. That's a direct personal attack. But, I have a thick skin, so I don't care. Just enforcing the rules YOU pointed out. I didn't expect you to see it since it conforms to things you've stated over time in the media.

CJ, focus, just focus. Are the two men you seek to defend Member of the Forum? If not, then our rules do not apply. But don't answer this question until you answer my others, otherwise your response will be deleted.

Chas.

[Charles L. Cotton]

Show me that either of these men are Forum Members? Also, those names are the monikers by which they are now known and this didn't start on the Forum.

So how about answering his questions, since it is directly on point with your current claim that OCT never did in-store demonstrations.

Chas.

"Making fools of yourselves." Not making fools of themselves. That's a direct personal attack. But, I have a thick skin, so I don't care. Just enforcing the rules YOU pointed out. I didn't expect you to see it since it conforms to things you've stated over time in the media.

Here's another mandatory question. What statements in the media do you mean?

Someday you're going to quit making false allegations about people.

Chas.

[The Annoyed Man]

Sigh. More NRA attacks on Texas pro-gun groups. I realize the NRA/TSRA cabal probably finds us threatening as a Texas gun rights organization (I don't speak for OCTC, not affiliated with Open Carry Texas) because it threatens their stranglehold on power. After all, these are the same organizations that said we wouldn't last six months, we were hurting any chance of open carry passing in the 84th Legislature, and continue to say we have no political clout while ignoring our achievements. These are also the same groups that have perpetuated the liberal fear mongering by attacking the public display of certain firearms.

Well, it's been 18 months and we're larger than ever. Open carry is a virtue certainty next year. We are heavily involved at both the state and grassroots level in the political game. We were heavily involved in several races around Texas that got us pro-2A candidates in primaries and general.

Charles Cotton is agitated because his and Alice Tripp's attempts to bully me and our members didn't work. It seems obvious the NRA/TSRA is dependent upon licensing away your gun rights because many states use their training and certification efforts in the CHL process.

When was the last time you heard the NRA mention "constitutional carry" as an agenda of theirs? If this legislation is already submitted, why wouldn't the NRA throw its weight behind it? And why is, yet again, the NRA attacking pro -2A groups who are (successfully) fighting to bring more gun rights to Texas? In fact, why hasn't either organization submitted such legislation themselves? Instead, they preemptively attack us for daring not to budge on our rights.

I'm an Endowment Life and Golden Eagles member of the NRA, so I'm not speaking from the outside here. I've paid my dues, so to speak. I've given thousands of dollars to the NRA over just the past two years, much more over my life. What did the NRA ever accomplish to bring open carry to Texas before we came along? Nothing. Over the past 20 years, how many bills has the NRA sponsored to lower the cost of the CHL, make it easier to obtain, or even do away with it as a requirement altogether? I'm sure there are some here and there, but if they have such clout, where are the results?

I learned pretty quickly that my money is best served supporting a national organization that isn't interested in licensing my rights away - National Association for Gun Rights. What Cotton here won't admit is that homegrown groups like Open Carry Texas, Texas Carry and Come and Take It Texas are the reason we will get open carry next year. The NRA/TSRA have done nothing but ride our coattails and try to undermine our efforts. They've virtually demanded that we stop exercising our rights because the gun control extremists weren't happy with such blatant exercising of a right. Instead of standing up to them, they stood against law abiding gun owners. It's threatening to the gunopoly to have these upstarts showing them up. We aren't multi million dollar corporations, we're member led.

Now that the pissing contest is out of the way, let's talk open carry. The FACT is that five states already have constitutional carry and it benefits those states. 31 states have UNLICENSED open carry and it isn't a problem. There is absolutely NO REASON why Texas needs to go to licensed open carry. None.

Our more than 30,000 members have worked the streets for pro gun candidates, walked thousands of miles handing out literature, spoken at hundreds of tea party and civic events, marched in parades, contacted leaders in Texas politics, held more than 2000 open carry events, secured support from hundreds of open carry friendly businesses across the state, worked tirelessly with law enforcement, and made clear all along we won't accept having our rights legislated away while standing first on our rights as protected in our state and federal constitutions.

Why should we beg for the right to carry a handgun openly with a license when we've spent the past 18 months carrying rifles and black powder revolvers (something else both the NRA and TSRA tried to stop us from doing) openly without a license. We've proven that open carry doesn't cause crime, doesn't hurt people, and can be done responsibly. No one was hurt, shot, raped, assaulted, maimed, or killed.

It's a sad day that Charles Cotton continues his attacks on our members without cause. He must be getting desperate and bitterly clinging to his relevance. Perhaps he should focus more on unity and gun rights and less on splintering gun owners.

CJ Grisham
Open Carry Texas

You got a lot of nerve.

What you proved by open carrying long guns into businesses is that they will in fact, with the assistance of soccer-moms who might have stayed home, make it harder to carry openly OR concealed in public. You want to know who gave rise to Moms Demand Action? Exactly people who allied with Bloomberg funding in reaction to Open Carry Texas's tactics. We need friends like OCT like we need a hole in the head.

You'll find that almost every single member of this forum supports OC in some form or other, with Constitutional Carry being the odds on favorite, but almost none of them can abide by OCT's lies and cheap tactics, and willingness, as Bladed said on page three of this thread, to demand the keys to the kingdom, or "If I can't be king, I'll burn the kingdom to the ground."

The NRA is a national organization, run by seasoned and mature men and women, who represent—NOT the couple of thousand OCT members—but the 5 MILLION NRA members...... and TSRA is its state level counterpart with tens of thousands of members. These people devote their lives and careers to the advancement of firearms rights in this state, and they do it with remarkable humility and service. The leadership of most of OC militancy is by contrast megalomaniacal and prideful. I have personally met and know people who were generally favorably disposed to the 2nd Amendment, concealed carry, and firearms ownership, and who reconsidered their viewpoints because they did not want to be in any way associated with egomaniacal firebrands, and your organization's OC protests with long guns frankly scared the crap out of them when my friends saw them in person.

Like I said, we need that like we need a hole in the head. Thank you very much. And now that you've driven fence sitters over to the other side, remember that these people VOTE.

The wilfully blind stupidity of OCT makes me want to tear my hair out. We might have had OC 2 years ago if your organization had learned how to behave like adults on the political landscape.

[G.A. Heath]

You got a lot of nerve.

What you proved by open carrying long guns into businesses is that they will in fact, with the assistance of soccer-moms who might have stayed home, make it harder to carry openly OR concealed in public. You want to know who gave rise to Moms Demand Action? Exactly people who allied with Bloomberg funding in reaction to Open Carry Texas's tactics. We need friends like OCT like we need a hole in the head.

You'll find that almost every single member of this forum supports OC in some form or other, with Constitutional Carry being the odds on favorite, but almost none of them can abide by OCT's lies and cheap tactics, and willingness, as Bladed said on page three of this thread, to demand the keys to the kingdom, or "If I can't be king, I'll burn the kingdom to the ground."

The NRA is a national organization, run by seasoned and mature men and women, who represent—NOT the couple of thousand OCT members—but the 5 MILLION NRA members...... and TSRA is its state level counterpart with tens of thousands of members. These people devote their lives and careers to the advancement of firearms rights in this state, and they do it with remarkable humility and service. The leadership of most of OC militancy is by contrast megalomaniacal and prideful. I have personally met and know people who were generally favorably disposed to the 2nd Amendment, concealed carry, and firearms ownership, and who reconsidered their viewpoints because they did not want to be in any way associated with egomaniacal firebrands, and your organization's OC protests with long guns frankly scared the crap out of them when my friends saw them in person.

Like I said, we need that like we need a hole in the head. Thank you very much. And now that you've driven fence sitters over to the other side, remember that these people VOTE.

The wilfully blind stupidity of OCT makes me want to tear my hair out. We might have had OC 2 years ago if your organization had learned how to behave like adults on the political landscape.

TAM, OCT did not exist 2 years ago. That was the Texas Citizens Defense League, and the group died after suffering such an abject failure. But we are seeing the same rhetoric, attitudes, and demands from OCT that we saw from TxCDL who has many of the same members.

[Cedar Park Dad]

When are you going to answer my straight forward questions?

Chas.

When I get around to it and have less important things to do.

So you can throw up attacks but refuse to reply to rebuttals?

How come your organization didn't work with the other organizations to develop OC?
How come you insist on insulting these other organizations?
Do you believe the 4mm members of these orgnaizations are also in on the conspiracy to only promote licensing?
What actual data do you have to support your position?

[CJ Grisham]

I will honestly admit I have a bias against CJ, and OCT leadership. I dislike being called "supposedly progun" because I disagree with someone, I dislike receiving threats, lies, and distortions because I do not agree 100% with a cult of personality.

Now, you're claiming I or OCT leadership threatened you. Proof please because I never threaten anyone that isn't a threat to me or my family physically.

[Cedar Park Dad]

So you're denying Fatman and Snowboots are part of your crew? Were you with the guys that went into Target, or were filmed in a Chilis making fools of yourselves?

A very short list where they stopped just short of 30.06s right after these demonstrations:
Starbucks
Target

You're violating the rules of the forum with your name calling. Wouldn't want your posts to get deleted. Unless of course there are different rules for different people.

Unless Fatman and Snowboots are members of this forum, then he is not violating the forum rules on personal attacks on members.

Keith B
Moderator

I will apologize however, as that isn't appropriate on my part if we're having a discussion. I don't know their real names. I'd hesitate to use their real names however, to avoid contributing to their harassment. I'll just note initials or not bring them up again.

[Cedar Park Dad]

Show me that either of these men are Forum Members? Also, those names are the monikers by which they are now known and this didn't start on the Forum.

So how about answering his questions, since it is directly on point with your current claim that OCT never did in-store demonstrations.

Chas.

"Making fools of yourselves." Not making fools of themselves. That's a direct personal attack. But, I have a thick skin, so I don't care. Just enforcing the rules YOU pointed out. I didn't expect you to see it since it conforms to things you've stated over time in the media.

So you and your group do know these individuals. Were you also part of the Target or Chilis events, or at the outdoor Mexican restaurant where you were asked to leave?

Why are you making enemies of the people actively supporting OC legislation? There are several bills in play currently.

Pro-tip: calling the NRA and TSRA a "Cabal" is insulting to the millions of members in those organizations.
Also Pro-tip: insulting the people who would be you natural supporters is not logical.

[Charles L. Cotton]

I will honestly admit I have a bias against CJ, and OCT leadership. I dislike being called "supposedly progun" because I disagree with someone, I dislike receiving threats, lies, and distortions because I do not agree 100% with a cult of personality.

Now, you're claiming I or OCT leadership threatened you. Proof please because I never threaten anyone that isn't a threat to me or my family physically.

Answer my questions CJ. Support the allegations and representations you have made here on the Forum.

Chas.

[G.A. Heath]

I will honestly admit I have a bias against CJ, and OCT leadership. I dislike being called "supposedly progun" because I disagree with someone, I dislike receiving threats, lies, and distortions because I do not agree 100% with a cult of personality.

Now, you're claiming I or OCT leadership threatened you. Proof please because I never threaten anyone that isn't a threat to me or my family physically.

I dislike receiving threats, lies, and distortions because I do not agree 100% with a cult of personality.

That is a complete sentence, a sentence is a complete thought, you and the leadership were not mentioned in it but the cult of personality that follows you was. The threats were made because I did not agree with the cult of personality that follows you and I understand you have no control over those people. However when I am told "We will end you" because I do not agree with someone it tends to cement my position, not make me change it. I do not know if the person making the threat was you or a member of OCTs leadership, BUT they were made in YOUR defense. It's amusing that every time someone does not agree with you that people show up in your defense to say/do/post things that you claim no control over, like the first time posters coming here, the threats made against me, and so on. Maybe you have no control over them, but you have not to my knowledge asked them to stop doing it either.

Also I would like to see the answers to Charles Questions as well, can you prove your statements or is it more simply nothing more than rhetoric?

[The Annoyed Man]

valno600, I won't say I agree with your commitment to OCT, but you sound more reasonable than CJ Grisham. I will tell you this: as long as your leader is not firmly grounded in reality, I can never be a part of, or work alongside OCT. Ever.

You guys oust Grisham and get people in leadership who do not have their egos wrapped up in their title, who answer questions forthrightly, who can lead a horse to water without poisoning the well, who do not casually and boastfully break the law the way Grisham did in Oklahoma, and who are consistently truthful, and who are able to see where they've made mistakes, acknowledge those mistakes and move on, and I'll begin to respect OCT. But as long as he is your titular head and inspiration, your entire organization is tainted by it because he is a seriously deficient leader and spokesperson, and I and thousands of liberty-minded Texas gun owners will never agree to having that stain added to our own characters.

It really is a matter of character. My character and reputation are important to me. Until OCT stops being led by the character-deficient, I can't have anything to do with it.

Maybe this post violates rules, and will be deleted, but hopefully it will be up long enough for you to see the REAL problem you have, and to get your organization's leadership to act on it.......or your group will ultimately die off.

[Valente Gonzalez]

"Please answer my question. Do you agree that OCT will be successful in the 2015 Texas Legislative Session only if HB195 passes? Neither you nor CJ want to answer the question and everyone knows why."

Why does it matter Charles? I get the feeling you do not feel we effect change much, if that is the case then we are irrelevant and we will not have any credit for doing anything anyway.

I can tell you this, I will speak for myself.
I will just do what I can to support liberty the best way I can. OCT is an Honorable Organization, it is advancing the cause of freedoms guaranteed to us by our our 2nd amendment. With OCT I feel that I'm not working alone, I feel I have friends and allies and that my efforts matter. It is an honor to work with my local members to advance the freedoms of Texans. I will continue to do the best I can with the resources and allies I have at my disposal.

It is way too early to begin hinging our success on the passage on one bill or another. Our bills have not even made it past committee yet. Right now we like HB195, and you said you support HB195.

Lets see what happens.
Valente Gonzalez

[Cedar Park Dad]

How are you advancing the cause when your leader insults millions of gun owners, when your protests lead to retailers banning firearms, and making the entire issue a hot potato for any politician when you should be making it attractive for them to pursue?

And not hey don't work for you. They work for all of us. They have no requirement to help you, at all.