Church carry

[mulfjohn]

Could someone that understands legal rhetoric help me to understand if we can carry in a church. The DPS regulations look like you can't but then they list all these subsections which are confusing. When I took my course my instructor said it was okay. Have been carrying for awhile but heard you couldn't in a church and now "I'm gun shy". Sorry for the pun.

[The Annoyed Man]

Could someone that understands legal rhetoric help me to understand if we can carry in a church. The DPS regulations look like you can't but then they list all these subsections which are confusing. When I took my course my instructor said it was okay. Have been carrying for awhile but heard you couldn't in a church and now "I'm gun shy". Sorry for the pun.

Read a few sentences past where houses of worship are exempted from chl. It says that that section does not apply unless the church is posted 30-06. Yes, you can carry in church. I did today. I am often on stage when carrying......and I'm not the only one.

A search of this forum will yield about a bazillion previous threads on this topic.

[The Annoyed Man]

This should have been THOROUGHLY covered in your CHL class.....

Read the RED TEXT below:

http://www.statutes.legis.state.tx.us/D ... /PE.46.htm

Sec. 46.035. UNLAWFUL CARRYING OF HANDGUN BY LICENSE HOLDER. (a) A license holder commits an offense if the license holder carries a handgun on or about the license holder's person under the authority of Subchapter H, Chapter 411, Government Code, and intentionally displays the handgun in plain view of another person in a public place.
(b) A license holder commits an offense if the license holder intentionally, knowingly, or recklessly carries a handgun under the authority of Subchapter H, Chapter 411, Government Code, regardless of whether the handgun is concealed, on or about the license holder's person:

• (1) on the premises of a business that has a permit or license issued under Chapter 25, 28, 32, 69, or 74, Alcoholic Beverage Code, if the business derives 51 percent or more of its income from the sale or service of alcoholic beverages for on-premises consumption, as determined by the Texas Alcoholic Beverage Commission under Section 104.06, Alcoholic Beverage Code;
  (2) on the premises where a high school, collegiate, or professional sporting event or interscholastic event is taking place, unless the license holder is a participant in the event and a handgun is used in the event;
  (3) on the premises of a correctional facility;
  (4) on the premises of a hospital licensed under Chapter 241, Health and Safety Code, or on the premises of a nursing home licensed under Chapter 242, Health and Safety Code, unless the license holder has written authorization of the hospital or nursing home administration, as appropriate;
  (5) in an amusement park; or
  (6) on the premises of a church, synagogue, or other established place of religious worship.
  

(c) A license holder commits an offense if the license holder intentionally, knowingly, or recklessly carries a handgun under the authority of Subchapter H, Chapter 411, Government Code, regardless of whether the handgun is concealed, at any meeting of a governmental entity.
(d) A license holder commits an offense if, while intoxicated, the license holder carries a handgun under the authority of Subchapter H, Chapter 411, Government Code, regardless of whether the handgun is concealed.
(e) A license holder who is licensed as a security officer under Chapter 1702, Occupations Code, and employed as a security officer commits an offense if, while in the course and scope of the security officer's employment, the security officer violates a provision of Subchapter H, Chapter 411, Government Code.
(f) In this section:

• (1) "Amusement park" means a permanent indoor or outdoor facility or park where amusement rides are available for use by the public that is located in a county with a population of more than one million, encompasses at least 75 acres in surface area, is enclosed with access only through controlled entries, is open for operation more than 120 days in each calendar year, and has security guards on the premises at all times. The term does not include any public or private driveway, street, sidewalk or walkway, parking lot, parking garage, or other parking area.
  (2) "License holder" means a person licensed to carry a handgun under Subchapter H, Chapter 411, Government Code.
  (3) "Premises" means a building or a portion of a building. The term does not include any public or private driveway, street, sidewalk or walkway, parking lot, parking garage, or other parking area.

(g) An offense under Subsection (a), (b), (c), (d), or (e) is a Class A misdemeanor, unless the offense is committed under Subsection (b)(1) or (b)(3), in which event the offense is a felony of the third degree.
(h) It is a defense to prosecution under Subsection (a) that the actor, at the time of the commission of the offense, displayed the handgun under circumstances in which the actor would have been justified in the use of force or deadly force under Chapter 9.

Text of subsection as added by Acts 2007, 80th Leg., R.S., Ch. 1214 (H.B. 1889), Sec. 2


(h-1) It is a defense to prosecution under Subsections (b) and (c) that the actor, at the time of the commission of the offense, was:

• (1) an active judicial officer, as defined by Section 411.201, Government Code; or
  (2) a bailiff designated by the active judicial officer and engaged in escorting the officer.

Text of subsection as added by Acts 2007, 80th Leg., R.S., Ch. 1222 (H.B. 2300), Sec. 5


(h-1) It is a defense to prosecution under Subsections (b)(1), (2), and (4)-(6), and (c) that at the time of the commission of the offense, the actor was:

• (1) a judge or justice of a federal court;
  (2) an active judicial officer, as defined by Section 411.201, Government Code; or
  (3) a district attorney, assistant district attorney, criminal district attorney, assistant criminal district attorney, county attorney, or assistant county attorney.

(i) Subsections (b)(4), (b)(5), (b)(6), and (c) do not apply if the actor was not given effective notice under Section 30.06. [emphasis mine]
(j) Subsections (a) and (b)(1) do not apply to a historical reenactment performed in compliance with the rules of the Texas Alcoholic Beverage Commission.
(k) It is a defense to prosecution under Subsection (b)(1) that the actor was not given effective notice under Section 411.204, Government Code.

[jmra]

This should have been THOROUGHLY covered in your CHL class....

However, the law was changed years ago and despite being informed on numerous occasions DPS still has incorrect information on the DPS CHL FAQ page.

[sammeow]

Per Title 10 Chpt. 46 § 46.03

 *on the premises of a church, synagogue, or other established place of religious worship.
 *On the premises of a Hospital licensed under the Health and Safety Code
 *On the premises of a nursing home licensed under the Health and Safety Code
 *Amusement parks. Amusement Parks means a permanent indoor or outdoor facility or park where
amusement rides are available for use by the public that is located in a county with a population of more than one million, encompasses at least 75 acres in surface area, is enclosed with access only through controlled entries, is open for operation more than 120 days in each calendar year, and has security guards on the premises at all times. The term does not include any public or private driveway, street, sidewalk or walkway, parking lot, parking garage, or other parking area.
 Public or private premises conspicuously posted with a Sign that meets these Criteria.
 Items above marked * Do not apply if the actor was not given effective notice under Section 30.06.

So short answer as stated above, unless 30.06 is posted you may carry!

[jmra]

Per Title 10 Chpt. 46 § 46.03

 *on the premises of a church, synagogue, or other established place of religious worship.
 *On the premises of a Hospital licensed under the Health and Safety Code
 *On the premises of a nursing home licensed under the Health and Safety Code
 *Amusement parks. Amusement Parks means a permanent indoor or outdoor facility or park where
amusement rides are available for use by the public that is located in a county with a population of more than one million, encompasses at least 75 acres in surface area, is enclosed with access only through controlled entries, is open for operation more than 120 days in each calendar year, and has security guards on the premises at all times. The term does not include any public or private driveway, street, sidewalk or walkway, parking lot, parking garage, or other parking area.
 Public or private premises conspicuously posted with a Sign that meets these Criteria.
 Items above marked * Do not apply if the actor was not given effective notice under Section 30.06.

So short answer as stated above, unless 30.06 is posted you may carry!

There must be an echo in here. if you scroll a little TAM just posted the entire section of the code in highlighted color no less.

[mulfjohn]

Thanks for the input. Big help. And yes, annoyed man, it was covered in class as I stated in the initial question. 2 problems arose long after class. I was told by a friend that is a LEO that you couldn't carry in a church so I went back and read the statute to see what is factual and what isn't. I am here for clarification since I assumed he knows the statute better than I do. And yes, I know what happens when we assume.

[C-dub]

Thanks for the input. Big help. And yes, annoyed man, it was covered in class as I stated in the initial question. 2 problems arose long after class. I was told by a friend that is a LEO that you couldn't carry in a church so I went back and read the statute to see what is factual and what isn't. I am here for clarification since I assumed he knows the statute better than I do. And yes, I know what happens when we assume.

I hope you'll show your LEO friend the full statute. Present company excluded, most LEOs are not the first group of folks I would go to for legal advice. Now, the ones around this forum are pretty knowledgeable about this subject, somewhat in part due to being on this forum or because they are on this forum it is a subject that they are keenly interested in.

[mulfjohn]

[SewTexas]

honestly, it's the LEO's that keep getting it wrong

[mulfjohn]

This may be true and I'm not actually disagreeing with you (in case any LEO's maybe reading this) but if they misinterpret the statutes, it only affects us. Both financially and legally. It is that mindset of let's do it and let someone clean up the mistake. But there is no way I see to change that unless people/LEO's are willing to learn, check with superiors and communicate effectively with each other. Remember, " A WISE MAN KNOWS WHAT HE DOESN'T KNOW".

[bryan1980]

honestly, it's the LEO's that keep getting it wrong

I can second that. This past weekend, I was with a family member who is a LEO. We talk guns all of the time, so he knows I carry. We were going to visit another family member who is in a rehabilitation hospital. Before we went, I mentioned that the hospital we were fixing to visit might be posted 30.06. He then said that all hospitals, no matter what, were off-limits. I told him that that only applies if they're clearly posted. Of course, the hospital in question was clearly and legally posted, so I had to disarm before entering.

It seems that there's a lot of confusion on the part of LEO's regarding this. Of course, EVERY major hospital around here is posted, anyhow, so it's easy to see why some would think it's required by law of be off-limits.

[howdy]

I too have had occasion to talk to LEO's about CHL law. This normally occurs when at a social type gathering or at Church. I too find that some have a limited understanding of CHL law. I respectfully talk about Texas statute 46.02 that states:

PC §46.02. UNLAWFUL CARRYING WEAPONS. (a) A person commits an
offense if the person intentionally, knowingly, or recklessly carries on or about his
or her person a handgun, illegal knife, or club if the person is not:
(1) on the person’s own premises or premises under the person’s control; or
(2) inside of or directly en route to a motor vehicle or watercraft that is owned
by the person or under the person’s control.
(a-1) A person commits an offense if the person intentionally, knowingly, or
recklessly carries on or about his or her person a handgun in a motor vehicle or
watercraft that is owned by the person or under the person’s control at any time in
which:
(1) the handgun is in plain view; or
(2) the person is:
(A) engaged in criminal activity, other than a Class C misdemeanor that is a
violation of a law or ordinance regulating traffic or boating;
(B) prohibited by law from possessing a firearm; or
(C) a member of a criminal street gang, as defined by Section 71.01.
(a-2) For purposes of this section, “premises” includes real property and a
recreational vehicle that is being used as living quarters, regardless of whether
that use is temporary or permanent. In this subsection, “recreational vehicle”
means a motor vehicle primarily designed as temporary living quarters or a
vehicle that contains temporary living quarters and is designed to be towed by
a motor vehicle. The term includes a travel trailer, camping trailer, truck camper,
motor home, and horse trailer with living quarters.
(a-3) For purposes of this section, “watercraft” means any boat, motorboat,
vessel, or personal watercraft, other than a seaplane on water, used or capable of
being used for transportation on water;
(b) Except as provided by Subsection (c), an offense under this section is a Class
A misdemeanor.
(c) An offense under this section is a felony of the third degree if the offense is
committed on any premises licensed or issued a permit by this state for the sale
of alcoholic beverages.
---

This law is all inclusive. It includes ALL person's in the State of Texas. I ask how they are allowed to carry a weapon with such a law. I then explain that you have to keep reading the statutes. 46.15 states:

PC §46.15. NON-APPLICABILITY. (a) Sections 46.02 and 46.03 do not apply to
a person who:(1) peace officers or special investigators under Article 2.122, Code of Criminal
Procedure, and neither section prohibits a peace officer or special investigator......

Section 46.35 is the same way. One area says we can't carry in a Church then farther down in the section it clarifies when we can. They have to KEEP READING.

[Morgan]

It's the fault of the state. If they would remove text instead of adding exceptions, the confusion would go away.

[The Annoyed Man]

It's the fault of the state. If they would remove text instead of adding exceptions, the confusion would go away.

I disagree to some extent. Sure, it would make things easier in a superficial way, but it could make things a lot harder in more deeply important ways. Here's why:

What they are doing is "amending" existing law, not writing new law. When we amend the Constitution, we don't remove the older amendment that was cancelled out by the new amendment. See the 18th (Prohibition) and 21st (cancelling Prohibition) amendments for an example.

There is a very good reason for doing things this way, and that is so that we can have a record of how we got to where we are. Imagine that the 2nd got overturned by amendment. Wouldn't you want the record there for all to see that Americans had once enjoyed that right, so that future generations could undo the folly of the one that banned firearms?

That's why updates to the law are penned in the way they are. Even when passages are struck from the law, they remain in the text, but crossed out with a line through it, indicating what the law used to say.

That gives us a legal roadmap.