DPMS vs. Colt

[Bang4Buck]

I agree with everything stated above. I regard mil-spec (minus the select fire trigger) as a minimum of what I am willing to accept in a self defense rifle. Others have gone beyond that spec, such as KAC sr-15.

My main agrument is with such a small price differnce, why not go ahead and get a colt 6920, which will also hold its resale value far better than a Bushmaster or DPMS.

And for those on a budget who are not as concerned about the infamous chart and mil-spec, this S&W is one of the best deals out there. Just look at the reviews:

http://grabagun.com/smith-and-wesson-m- ... black.html" onclick="window.open(this.href);return false;

[howdy]

I had 12 friends that were killed flying "mil-spec" airplanes. I too almost died on July 12, 1975 when an F-4 came apart on me. There was a running joke that the military got their stuff from the lowest bidder.

I am not concerned about mil-spec on any other guns I own. My Glock 19 is by far the most reliable gun I own. My Ruger mini-14 has never failed to fire. I have a slide fire stock on my Bushmaster and it will spit out 30 rounds of any ammo in about 3 seconds. No FTF or FTF. (I don't do this very often...just too darn expensive) I also have a DPMS and an Armalite AR. I bought all of them when Obama was first elected and they all go bang when I pull the trigger and they are all more accurate than I am.

I think Hurricane Katrina/Rita should be a wake up call for anyone thinking about bugging out during the "zombie" attack. Unless you go REAL early or have a helicopter, you aren't going anywhere. I will make my stand here. I know my neighbors and friends. My entire family live within 5 miles of me. Where would I go? We have a farm and a lake house but both are not accessible without using freeways.

As far as ammo...I WILL NOT run out, ever.

[Jumping Frog]

I am not concerned about mil-spec.

However, I am concerned with reliability.

When I read of reports from instructors at various shooting schools that talk about the guns that fail during class, all else being equal I'd rather have a gun with demonstrated reliability. Don't get me wrong, I fully understand that every gun can fail, but people who do not recognize that some brands are known to be more reliable than others are just not listening.

[CleverNickname]

Additionally, how would the new piston driven AR types compare (S&W, Sig, Ruger for example)?

Piston AR15's are a hack that shouldn't exist. First, the AR15 BCG was not designed for being struck by an off-center force and the AR15 bolt was never meant to be dragged out of the locking lug area with the tail of the bolt forced downwards by the bolt carrier, dragging the top front and bottom rear portions of the bolt lugs along the barrel extension lugs. This causes uneven and unnecessary wear on the lugs, and contributes to premature parts breakage. Also, tilting carriers do cause wear to receiver extensions, which is worth mentioning, even if it is nowhere near as large of a problem as bolts tilting up under pressure, while rotating.

Second, the bolt is designed to have forward gas pressure pressing against the gas rings on the bolt, as the bolt carrier pulls back an unlocks. This provides an equalizing push on the rear of the bolt, and prevents grinding of the rear of the bolt lugs as the carrier moves back. On a piston rifle, there is no gas inside the bolt carrier, and thus no equalizing forward push. This leads to more off center, un-cushioned grinding of the bolt lugs, and premature parts breakage.

Third, the speed at which piston guns unlock is much faster than the speed at which DI guns unlock. This is why they mostly use heavier buffers, to slow the bolt carrier travel. The difference is measured in fractions of a second, but it is significant when dealing with gas pressure. DI guns are designed to unlock as gas fills the bolt carrier group, and provide time for the chamber pressure to drop. The gas piston guns unlock at the speed the rod strikes them, nearly instantaneously, with no cushion of gas pressing the bolt forward and provide the same sort of overzealous extraction that often rips brass, and violent cycling that we expect from a $600 overgassed DPMS. This too, is bad for all moving parts of the gun.

In short, don't get a gas-piston AR15. If you want a gas-piston rifle, there's plenty of other types of rifles out there that were designed from the ground up to use a piston; get one of those.

[cyphertext]

My main agrument is with such a small price differnce, why not go ahead and get a colt 6920, which will also hold its resale value far better than a Bushmaster or DPMS.

I can agree with this, to a point... If it is between two basic, no frills carbines (which the LE6920 is) then yes. What typically happens though is that for the same money, you can get a LE6920, or a rifle with quad rail and free float barrel, or other "upgrades". But usually, to have the same price point, you get different barrel steel, semi auto carrier, carbine buffer, etc. As long as you know what the differences are, and can make an educated decision based upon how you use the rifle, you will be ok.

I don't see Colt as holding resale value better anymore. At one point, yes, they did... but they cost a whole lot more then too. Once Colt lost their gov. contract and had to turn back to civilian sales, selling the LE6920 in Walmart resale values dropped. Cost cutting hit the Colt rifle as well. Today, you no longer get the carry handle, sling, cleaning kit or aluminum mags. Yes, not vital to the rifle, but still added more to the overall package IMO. I'll take the carry handle over the plastic MBUS any day.

[gigag04]

These threads provide a great source of entertainment.

To the OP....buy whichever you would like. Every brand has it's fans, this true. There exists a collection of brands that are considered good to go by those that use them for a living. Among those brands are many of the top tier rifles listed by some in this thread. Colt, BCM, DD, LMT, and the like.

I would not let an annectdotal story about planes crashing count as a valid criticism of these rifles.

Some folks never have problems with their Bushmaster or RRA, but for me it isn't worth it.

Lastly, There are some acronyms to research if you want to learn about quality differentiation in the AR platform:

MPI, HPT, CHF, TDP. M4Carbine.net is a great place to start.

[Bang4Buck]

M4Carbine.net is a great place to start.

[cyphertext]

M4Carbine.net is a great place to start.

I will respectfully disagree. The canned answer from there is Colt, BCM, Noveske, DD... if you want to know about any other AR on the market, that website is a total waste of time.

[glbedd53]

I'm not an AR hater, I own 2, and one is a Colt, but if reliability is the main requirement, the best AR is an AK. Just my opinion for what that is worth.

[Cedar Park Dad]

Additionally, how would the new piston driven AR types compare (S&W, Sig, Ruger for example)?

Piston AR15's are a hack that shouldn't exist. First, the AR15 BCG was not designed for being struck by an off-center force and the AR15 bolt was never meant to be dragged out of the locking lug area with the tail of the bolt forced downwards by the bolt carrier, dragging the top front and bottom rear portions of the bolt lugs along the barrel extension lugs. This causes uneven and unnecessary wear on the lugs, and contributes to premature parts breakage. Also, tilting carriers do cause wear to receiver extensions, which is worth mentioning, even if it is nowhere near as large of a problem as bolts tilting up under pressure, while rotating.

Second, the bolt is designed to have forward gas pressure pressing against the gas rings on the bolt, as the bolt carrier pulls back an unlocks. This provides an equalizing push on the rear of the bolt, and prevents grinding of the rear of the bolt lugs as the carrier moves back. On a piston rifle, there is no gas inside the bolt carrier, and thus no equalizing forward push. This leads to more off center, un-cushioned grinding of the bolt lugs, and premature parts breakage.

Third, the speed at which piston guns unlock is much faster than the speed at which DI guns unlock. This is why they mostly use heavier buffers, to slow the bolt carrier travel. The difference is measured in fractions of a second, but it is significant when dealing with gas pressure. DI guns are designed to unlock as gas fills the bolt carrier group, and provide time for the chamber pressure to drop. The gas piston guns unlock at the speed the rod strikes them, nearly instantaneously, with no cushion of gas pressing the bolt forward and provide the same sort of overzealous extraction that often rips brass, and violent cycling that we expect from a $600 overgassed DPMS. This too, is bad for all moving parts of the gun.

In short, don't get a gas-piston AR15. If you want a gas-piston rifle, there's plenty of other types of rifles out there that were designed from the ground up to use a piston; get one of those.

Thanks! Glad I asked the question.

[ripnbst]

Of those two, buy Colt. I don't like when someone posts a "This or That" question and people fail to answer the question and go off on some other tangent instead. So since I've answered your question, here's my tangent.

I recommend you buy a rifle from palmetto state armory that is outfitted to your liking. PSA is highly regarded as building quality guns that run very well. They runs deals constantly and I've yet to find a place that will yield a better value than a PSA rifle. I'd personally put a PSA built gun up against a BCM, DD, etc. I don't stake my life on my gun for a living but I'd still but PSA even if I was.

My personal requirements in an all around AR:

Mid length gas system
Chrome-lined or Nitrided(prefferred) barrel, stainless is best but hard to find in anything but heavy profile barrels in an AR.
medium or M4 profile profile
FA rated BCG, properly staked(though it seems the industry has a handle on this now) MPI and high pressure tested a plus
1:8 or 1:9 twist barrel
16" barrel length
Low profile gas block
rail system of some type
EDIT TO ADD: All milspec dimension components. It just makes life so much easier.

Whatever you buy it run it with copius amounts of lubrication. Mobil 1, gun oil of your choice, whatever. Use lots of it.

Notice how I've said "personal" a lot in this post. To me guns and their accessories are a very personal decision. What works for me and what I look for in my guns may not fit what you are looking for.

[StewNTexas]

Not to thread drift, but take a look at the Sig Sauer M400.

I bought one from my local Wal-Mart about 10 days ago. Around $900 with a prismatic scope.

Shoots great, pleased so far.

[ShootDontTalk]

I am a Colt-certified Armorer. If you want to know what Mil-spec is really all about, you simply must go take a class. Most of what I hear tossed about is simply not true or worse, not even applicable. I won't even go into all this again here. Understanding Mil-spec is far more than reading recommendations on the internet.

Finally I will state this once more. Many houses buy the exact same parts from exactly the same manufacturers because no one produces all of their own parts. Not even Colt. But somehow the internet "experts" proclaim this brand as Mil-spec or that brand as not. I own a DPMS and a Colt as well as several others. I have built more than 50 rifles. Go look your choices over and buy the one you like best. Either one will serve you well.

[Rrash]

Finally I will state this once more. Many houses buy the exact same parts from exactly the same manufacturers because no one produces all of their own parts. Not even Colt.

I find this to be true as well. Regardless of who made the rifle, there are going to be third party manufactured parts on the gun. If you want an awesome, reliable rifle to shoot/defend yourself, purchase or mod one with high quality components. If you are looking to retain value, however, the higher-end companies would be your best bet. Triggers, BGC's, charging handles, etc., those are very easy mods that can be done later if you're on a tight budget, but you won't get your investment back.

I own AR's from neither manufacturer, but have built a few.

[CleverNickname]

Finally I will state this once more. Many houses buy the exact same parts from exactly the same manufacturers because no one produces all of their own parts. Not even Colt.

True, but not all companies have the same level of QC and parts that might pass at one company will fail at another, or might not have even been inspected.