Moms Demand Action Seeks to Change 30.06 Signage Requirement

[mamabearCali]

Supid, Stupid, STUPID! What is WRONG with these people that they can't wake up and get a clue?

My guess is that we're busy dividing up into "us" versus "them". Anything that "they" do is wrong. Anything "they" do is stupid.
IF you're an OC demonstrator you:
1) Are stupid.
2) Don't support concealed carry.
3) Are helping support anti-firearm factions via public confrontation.

My guess is that if we weren't so "us vs them" we might make some progress. I believe there are some moderate OC advocates out there and some that understand why carrying an AR-15 at Starbucks isn't going to win friends and influence people in the right direction.

I'm not sure how you'd illustrate, maybe by associating confrontational tactics with downstream legislation attempts... And by confrontational, I don't mean peacefully assembled, permitted (if required), constitutional speech in an area where you'd expect to see such demonstrations.

Rather than calling them stupid and drawing lines, why not engage in a little conversation?
And sure, there are those that will be fringe and won't compromise one bit, but they're not the majority... They are the guys that you're noticing - the guys that are causing you to select a "side" on this issue, when there really is a vast amount of common ground...

And then there is that solution we don't want to talk about. Brand me anti-gun (I've been called worse here), but if we don't want to see AR-15s in public places, maybe we should change the law? That would certainly clear the issue up.

I have said this a few times too. So .


There are very reasonable OC people out there. There are of course die hards on both sides. I don't live in TX, but a continued conversation with less disparaging terms on both sides would be profitable for all.

[The Annoyed Man]

Supid, Stupid, STUPID! What is WRONG with these people that they can't wake up and get a clue?

My guess is that we're busy dividing up into "us" versus "them". Anything that "they" do is wrong. Anything "they" do is stupid.
IF you're an OC demonstrator you:
1) Are stupid.
2) Don't support concealed carry.
3) Are helping support anti-firearm factions via public confrontation.

My guess is that if we weren't so "us vs them" we might make some progress. I believe there are some moderate OC advocates out there and some that understand why carrying an AR-15 at Starbucks isn't going to win friends and influence people in the right direction.

I'm not sure how you'd illustrate, maybe by associating confrontational tactics with downstream legislation attempts... And by confrontational, I don't mean peacefully assembled, permitted (if required), constitutional speech in an area where you'd expect to see such demonstrations.

Rather than calling them stupid and drawing lines, why not engage in a little conversation?
And sure, there are those that will be fringe and won't compromise one bit, but they're not the majority... They are the guys that you're noticing - the guys that are causing you to select a "side" on this issue, when there really is a vast amount of common ground...

And then there is that solution we don't want to talk about. Brand me anti-gun (I've been called worse here), but if we don't want to see AR-15s in public places, maybe we should change the law? That would certainly clear the issue up.

I am on record as an OC supporter many times over. I go further and advocate for Constitutional Carry. This has been my record or years now. I have nothing to apologize for in this regard. When I have, respectfully, suggested over the years on various forums that confrontational tactics are counterproductive to the advancement of our gun rights, I have been called "anti-gun", "anti-2nd Amendment", and "un-American". To hell with them. They ARE stupid. There are none so blind as those who are willfully so.

Open Carry Texas was founded and continues to be lead by a person who has a LONG history of tangling with authority, making death threats against people, dereliction of duty while in the military, documented psychiatric issues, and claimed PTSD (from someone who rarely if ever went outside the wire according to on-scene observers). The reverence in the voices of his acolytes when they refer to CJ Grisham as "our Founder" is almost cultic. You'd think they were talking about Thomas Jefferson. Take a moment to read his Bronze Star citation. It is noticeably short on specifics, and speculation is that it was a favor from a "godfather" higher up his chain of command, but to his initiates, it legitimizes every pearl of "wisdom" which drips from his lips. To them, he is hero of the faith and can do no wrong.

cb1000rider, you are one for always challenging the rest of us to do our due diligence before posting anything. I am challenging you to do the same with CJ Grisham. Thoroughly vet his background, then come back and tell me if you think this man should be leading a statewide open carry advocacy group, in what is a politically perilous time.

I would not have a problem in general with a statewide open carry advocacy group; just not this group, led by this Self-aggrandizing buffoon. This is not about me engaging in the politics of personal destruction, this is about a healthy skepticism when choosing who will lead such an important movement. Too many OC Texas members buy into Grisham's self-created mythology with FAR less questioning than they reserved for Obama's birth certificate. Why? Because they choose the siren song of instant gratification over the kind of long ball wisdom that will actually work. In so doing, they risk more than just killing the passage of handgun open carry........they in fact risk the loss of long gun open carry, and a drastic change to signage requirements that will negatively impact concealed carry.

How stupid is that? I'll tell you.... it's REALLY stupid.

You say that I am allowing myself to be part of dividing and conquering the gun rights movement. I say that I am refusing to be buffaloed into supporting a group who will do more harm than good to the movement because it is lead by a firebrand with a disturbing past, who is leading a fair number of people who lack any sense of self-examination and healthy skepticism. That probably doesn't describe ALL of the members, but it describes enough of them that, when combined with the names I have been called, I don't want any part of the stain of that association upon my own character.

I will continue to support and argue for passage of OC and Constitutional Carry, but through other means than that group....means which are more likely to profile long term positive and tangible results. OC Texas has lost me until they get someone with a sober mindset to lead it in a sober and thoughtful direction.

Again, I urge you to do your due diligence.

[gljjt]

Supid, Stupid, STUPID! What is WRONG with these people that they can't wake up and get a clue?

My guess is that we're busy dividing up into "us" versus "them". Anything that "they" do is wrong. Anything "they" do is stupid.
IF you're an OC demonstrator you:
1) Are stupid.
2) Don't support concealed carry.
3) Are helping support anti-firearm factions via public confrontation.

My guess is that if we weren't so "us vs them" we might make some progress. I believe there are some moderate OC advocates out there and some that understand why carrying an AR-15 at Starbucks isn't going to win friends and influence people in the right direction.

I'm not sure how you'd illustrate, maybe by associating confrontational tactics with downstream legislation attempts... And by confrontational, I don't mean peacefully assembled, permitted (if required), constitutional speech in an area where you'd expect to see such demonstrations.

Rather than calling them stupid and drawing lines, why not engage in a little conversation?
And sure, there are those that will be fringe and won't compromise one bit, but they're not the majority... They are the guys that you're noticing - the guys that are causing you to select a "side" on this issue, when there really is a vast amount of common ground...

And then there is that solution we don't want to talk about. Brand me anti-gun (I've been called worse here), but if we don't want to see AR-15s in public places, maybe we should change the law? That would certainly clear the issue up.

I am on record as an OC supporter many times over. I go further and advocate for Constitutional Carry. This has been my record or years now. I have nothing to apologize for in this regard. When I have, respectfully, suggested over the years on various forums that confrontational tactics are counterproductive to the advancement of our gun rights, I have been called "anti-gun", "anti-2nd Amendment", and "un-American". To heck with them. They ARE stupid. There are none so blind as those who are willfully so.

Open Carry Texas was founded and continues to be lead by a person who has a LONG history of tangling with authority, making death threats against people, dereliction of duty while in the military, documented psychiatric issues, and claimed PTSD (from someone who rarely if ever went outside the wire according to on-scene observers). The reverence in the voices of his acolytes when they refer to CJ Grisham as "our Founder" is almost cultic. You'd think they were talking about Thomas Jefferson. Take a moment to read his Bronze Star citation. It is noticeably short on specifics, and speculation is that it was a favor from a "godfather" higher up his chain of command, but to his initiates, it legitimizes every pearl of "wisdom" which drips from his lips. To them, he is hero of the faith and can do no wrong.

cb1000rider, you are one for always challenging the rest of us to do our due diligence before posting anything. I am challenging you to do the same with CJ Grisham. Thoroughly vet his background, then come back and tell me if you think this man should be leading a statewide open carry advocacy group, in what is a politically perilous time.

I would not have a problem in general with a statewide open carry advocacy group; just not this group, led by this Self-aggrandizing buffoon. This is not about me engaging in the politics of personal destruction, this is about a healthy skepticism when choosing who will lead such an important movement. Too many OC Texas members buy into Grisham's self-created mythology with FAR less questioning than they reserved for Obama's birth certificate. Why? Because they choose the siren song of instant gratification over the kind of long ball wisdom that will actually work. In so doing, they risk more than just killing the passage of handgun open carry........they in fact risk the loss of long gun open carry, and a drastic change to signage requirements that will negatively impact concealed carry.

How stupid is that? I'll tell you.... it's REALLY stupid.

You say that I am allowing myself to be part of dividing and conquering the gun rights movement. I say that I am refusing to be buffaloed into supporting a group who will do more harm than good to the movement because it is lead by a firebrand with a disturbing past, who is leading a fair number of people who lack any sense of self-examination and healthy skepticism. That probably doesn't describe ALL of the members, but it describes enough of them that, when combined with the names I have been called, I don't want any part of the stain of that association upon my own character.

I will continue to support and argue for passage of OC and Constitutional Carry, but through other means than that group....means which are more likely to profile long term positive and tangible results. OC Texas has lost me until they get someone with a sober mindset to lead it in a sober and thoughtful direction.

Again, I urge you to do your due diligence.

Deleted

[baldeagle]

I wish the denigration of Grisham on this forum would stop. It is beneath the dignity of the people who post here.

Open Carry Texas was founded and continues to be lead by a person who has a LONG history of tangling with authority, making death threats against people, dereliction of duty while in the military, documented psychiatric issues, and claimed PTSD (from someone who rarely if ever went outside the wire according to on-scene observers). The reverence in the voices of his acolytes when they refer to CJ Grisham as "our Founder" is almost cultic. You'd think they were talking about Thomas Jefferson. Take a moment to read his Bronze Star citation. It is noticeably short on specifics, and speculation is that it was a favor from a "godfather" higher up his chain of command, but to his initiates, it legitimizes every pearl of "wisdom" which drips from his lips. To them, he is hero of the faith and can do no wrong.

If you were at all familiar with the long-running criticism of Grisham by Michael Yon, as I am, you would read this as almost a copy and paste of what Yon has written.

To denigrate a soldier's Bronze Star, in my opinion, is beyond the pale and says a great deal more about the person doing it than it does the person targeted. Anyone who has been in the service knows that awards are handed out entirely arbitrarily and in many cases men who deserve awards never receive them. Grisham's Bronze Star was awarded for what he did in Iraq, not for his work as an intelligence agent in Afghanistan. The fact that Yon conflates the two points to his dishonest attack against Grisham.

Here is his bronze star citiation. You'll notice that the phrase "under fire" occurs twice. For Yon to claim "Unlike most Bronze Stars with V, which are appropriately granted for specific acts of valor under fire, Grisham’s does not cite a particular incident." is despicable beyond belief. http://www.michaelyon-online.com/stalki ... alysis.htm" onclick="window.open(this.href);return false; To see how dishonest Yon's claim is, you merely need to google bronze star recipients, go to this page and read a few of the citations. - http://projects.militarytimes.com/citat ... hp?medal=7" onclick="window.open(this.href);return false; Some are quite specific. Others are just like CJ's. Are we now going to start nitpicking Bronze Star recipients?

I know CJ personally, and it pains me greatly to see his honorable service dragged through the mud because people disagree with his OC tactics in Texas. Do you know that he has also received the Meritorious Service Medal? Those are not handed out like candy.

"To justify this decoration, the acts or services rendered by an individual, regardless of grade or rate, must have been comparable to that required for the Legion of Merit but in a duty of lesser responsibility. The Meritorious Service Medal is the counterpart of the Bronze Star Medal for the recognition of meritorious non-combat service."

Disagree with him if you want. That's fine. But leave the insults out. They are not needed, and they weaken your argument. Any time someone has to descend to ad hominem, it's an admission that their argument is weak. Yon's is weak tea indeed. In fact it has cost him many readers (myself included) who used to follow him.

[jmra]

Ok, let's say his past is not relevant. What is relevant is his recent actions as I believe those actions and the misguided people emboldened by those actions are doing great damage to gun rights in TX.

[baldeagle]

Ok, let's say his past is not relevant. What is relevant is his recent actions as I believe those actions and the misguided people emboldened by those actions are doing great damage to gun rights in TX.

His past may be relevant. The slander of his good name is not. I find it beyond incredible that a Bronze Star recipient can be made fun of for receiving the Bronze Star and his problems with PTSD (real or not) can be the subject of ridicule. It is beyond disgusting, and it sickens me to read it. The man is a highly decorated Master Sergeant. Anyone who has been in the service knows that you don't get to that level of rank without a lot of hard work and admirable service. Criticize him for his blogging or for some of the antics he has engaged in. Criticize him for his choice of tactics in crusading for OC in Texas. But leave his service out of it or at least deal with it honestly. Making fun of his Bronze Star is well outside the bounds of responsible criticism. Making fun of his claims of PTSD is even more so. And the people on this board who have repeated these slanders have disappointed me greatly. I thought we were above that.

[Cedar Park Dad]

I could care less about his past. I don't even know who this is. I only care that the OC narcissist protestors have not only sunk their own cause, but are now starting to drag the rest of us down with them.

[jmra]

I could care less about his past. I don't even know who this is. I only care that the OC narcissist protestors have not only sunk their own cause, but are now starting to drag the rest of us down with them.

[SQLGeek]

Despite everything else around the history of the OC movement (which I truly don't care about), I truly believe what is going on now is doing nothing but harming the reputation of gun owners as responsible and law abiding citizens. I think their actions are galvanizing those on the fence and pushing them towards anti-carry, pro gun control groups.

I base this on a large volume of comments I've read in various places, including anti sites but also in the general media.

Do you all have any idea how many times I've seen this image posted lately?



You can't tell me this doesn't brand all gun owners in the eyes of many of the uninformed. When we talk about bearing and carrying arms, THIS is going to be what most of those types think of. I haven't heard a single undecided person say something positive about these OC demonstrations. They aren't working.

Let's not lose sight on how small a percentage of the general population has a CHL.

We're already seeing an increasing number of corporations tell us not to bring guns of any kind in their places. This is going to continue because their hand is being forced.If we keep down this road, we're going to the battle of public perception and then we will start losing our rights.

[BigGuy]

From the article in the OP:

"Dianna Barker was shot at a restaurant when another diner’s pistol fell out of a pocket and accidentally went off."

Yeah, I'm calling bull on that. For that to happen, the gun would have to be either an antique, or unbelievably defective.

[The Annoyed Man]

Ok, let's say his past is not relevant. What is relevant is his recent actions as I believe those actions and the misguided people emboldened by those actions are doing great damage to gun rights in TX.

His past may be relevant. The slander of his good name is not. I find it beyond incredible that a Bronze Star recipient can be made fun of for receiving the Bronze Star and his problems with PTSD (real or not) can be the subject of ridicule. It is beyond disgusting, and it sickens me to read it. The man is a highly decorated Master Sergeant. Anyone who has been in the service knows that you don't get to that level of rank without a lot of hard word and admirable service. Criticize him for his blogging or for some of the antics he has engaged in. Criticize him for his choice of tactics in crusading for OC in Texas. But leave his service out of it or at least deal with it honestly. Making fun of his Bronze Star is well outside the bounds of responsible criticism. Making fun of his claims of PTSD is even more so. And the people on this board who have repeated these slanders have disappointed me greatly. I thought we were above that.

Even if it were true that the information I've read about CJ Grisham is incorrect, much of what he has done since in terms of OC demonstration is nuts. I still would not want him to be in charge of such an organization. whatever else he is or is not, he IS a firebrand, and that scares the very people who need to be convinced of the rightness of the cause.

[jmra]

Ok, let's say his past is not relevant. What is relevant is his recent actions as I believe those actions and the misguided people emboldened by those actions are doing great damage to gun rights in TX.

His past may be relevant. The slander of his good name is not. I find it beyond incredible that a Bronze Star recipient can be made fun of for receiving the Bronze Star and his problems with PTSD (real or not) can be the subject of ridicule. It is beyond disgusting, and it sickens me to read it. The man is a highly decorated Master Sergeant. Anyone who has been in the service knows that you don't get to that level of rank without a lot of hard word and admirable service. Criticize him for his blogging or for some of the antics he has engaged in. Criticize him for his choice of tactics in crusading for OC in Texas. But leave his service out of it or at least deal with it honestly. Making fun of his Bronze Star is well outside the bounds of responsible criticism. Making fun of his claims of PTSD is even more so. And the people on this board who have repeated these slanders have disappointed me greatly. I thought we were above that.

Even if it were true that the information I've read about CJ Grisham is incorrect, much of what he has done since in terms of OC demonstration is nuts. I still would not want him to be in charge of such an organization. whatever else he is or is not, he IS a firebrand, and that scares the very people who need to be convinced of the rightness of the cause.

[SQLGeek]

From the article in the OP:

"Dianna Barker was shot at a restaurant when another diner’s pistol fell out of a pocket and accidentally went off."

Yeah, I'm calling bovine excrement on that. For that to happen, the gun would have to be either an antique, or unbelievably defective.

My understanding is that it was a Derringer of some kind but that's only what I've read.

[baldeagle]

From the article in the OP:

"Dianna Barker was shot at a restaurant when another diner’s pistol fell out of a pocket and accidentally went off."

Yeah, I'm calling bovine excrement on that. For that to happen, the gun would have to be either an antique, or unbelievably defective.

It happened. It was discussed on this forum. viewtopic.php?f=7&t=41205&hilit=houston+derringer+shot" onclick="window.open(this.href);return false;

[cb1000rider]

Open Carry Texas was founded and continues to be lead by a person who has a LONG history of tangling with authority, making death threats against people, dereliction of duty while in the military, documented psychiatric issues, and claimed PTSD (from someone who rarely if ever went outside the wire according to on-scene observers). The reverence in the voices of his acolytes when they refer to CJ Grisham as "our Founder" is almost cultic. You'd think they were talking about Thomas Jefferson. Take a moment to read his Bronze Star citation. It is noticeably short on specifics, and speculation is that it was a favor from a "godfather" higher up his chain of command, but to his initiates, it legitimizes every pearl of "wisdom" which drips from his lips. To them, he is hero of the faith and can do no wrong.

cb1000rider, you are one for always challenging the rest of us to do our due diligence before posting anything. I am challenging you to do the same with CJ Grisham. Thoroughly vet his background, then come back and tell me if you think this man should be leading a statewide open carry advocacy group, in what is a politically perilous time.

I would not have a problem in general with a statewide open carry advocacy group; just not this group, led by this Self-aggrandizing buffoon. This is not about me engaging in the politics of personal destruction, this is about a healthy skepticism when choosing who will lead such an important movement. Too many OC Texas members buy into Grisham's self-created mythology with FAR less questioning than they reserved for Obama's birth certificate. Why? Because they choose the siren song of instant gratification over the kind of long ball wisdom that will actually work. In so doing, they risk more than just killing the passage of handgun open carry........they in fact risk the loss of long gun open carry, and a drastic change to signage requirements that will negatively impact concealed carry.

How stupid is that? I'll tell you.... it's REALLY stupid.

I wasn't aware that we were just talking about Grisham and his particular OC group. What I've read here is that THIS group largely divides into US versus THEM.. With the THEM being any sort of OC support organization.

If you think that it's Texas Open Carry - and Grisham in particular, lets be specific about it. Even then, my guess is that there are more moderately minded people in that group that might be susceptible to a rational conversation, especially one somewhat authored by someone who is familiar with the legislative process in Texas. You can't get that message out by name calling. And you can't get that message out effectively by isolating two sides... Doing so is much more counter-productive than productive, especially when there is an immense amount of commonality in regard to end goals.

I don't debate that there will be extreme views.. Birthers, people who will demand to have ARs at Starbucks, sure, they exist. They're not a majority by any means.

I'm aware of who Grisham is largely through the Temple incident, which I've been following. I appreciate your call for me to review his background, but again, I wasn't speaking of him in particular. Certainly his incident - in my opinion - was at least premeditated in at least the possibility of a confrontation. I don't debate that. And I don't debate that this type of publicity is not winning friends in the legislature.

I have no commentary on the Bronze Star, other than to say lack of specifics doesn't speak to me one way or another, other than to tell me that someone though he served with some level of distinction.

Look, there are a bunch of sheep in Grisham's group. There are quite a few sheep around here too. I'm just saying that we shouldn't train our sheep to look at this as us versus them due to the cases of some extremists.... And I say that directing comments at Grishman himself or his group in particular, but in a more moderate sense of indicating that not all OC supporters who are willing to demonstrate are out to doom our gun rights. I'm simply saying that if you want to change it, one completely ineffective way is going to be squaring off... If I was in the anti-gun camp, that's EXACTLY what I would want to happen - pit the pro-gun groups against each other and clean up.