APD violating CHL law?

[TXtoothpick]

Hello good folk. Thanks for any input.

I live in Austin Texas and have a current valid CHL. Recently I was pulled over by Austin Police (APD) for a simple expired registration and when the officer asked me for my identification I gave him my TX drivers license and my TX CHL license. He asked if I was carrying and I said yes I have a revolver in my right front pocket. The officer instantly became angry and lectured me on how "I was to tell him or any other officer that I was carrying a gun" and he immediately told me to step out of the vehicle, put my hands behind my back, he grabbed both my hands with his left hand and removed my revolver/holster from my pocket. After the officer gave me the ticket he said that he would give me back my weapon but that he was going to leave it on my rear bumper and instructed me to not retrieve the gun until after they had left in their police cars. This was around midnight in a crime infested area parking lot near traffic and bystanders. Officer said he pulled me over for expired registration, he had my CHL status on his computer before pulling me over, and he admitted that I had never been arrested before. I gave no problems or protests or attitude and I could not have been more respectful or accommodating to the officer.

I am very concerned about several things here. AFAIK I did everything as required by law (other than an expired registration) but the officer told me that I had a duty to do something which I didn't do and then he applied obvious retaliation for me not doing it. He also left my gun unsecured and unconcealed on my rear bumper. It is my lawful duty to conceal and secure my gun at all times.

Do I have a legal duty to initiate verbal language to an approaching peace office with the word "gun" such as "I HAVE A GUN" on the side of a busy highway, before he even speaks or initiates the conversation or asks for my identification? That could get me shot. I can't find anything in Texas law that states that a TX citizen CHL holder must tell any peace officer BEFORE BEING ASKED that they are carrying a gun. Thus was the officer "acting in the lawful discharge of the officer's official duties" when he disarmed me in retaliation for not doing something that I had no legal duty to do?

And where does Texas law state that I have to tell the officer anything about my gun other than to DISPLAY my CHL? That is very different than having to SAY wording such as "I have a gun".

Texas Concealed Handgun Laws and Selected Statutes:

GC §411.205. REQUIREMENT TO DISPLAY LICENSE. (a) If a license holder is carrying a handgun on or about the license holder's person when a magistrate or a peace officer demands that the license holder display identification, the license holder shall display both the license holder's driver's license or identification certificate issued by the department and the license holder's handgun license.

GC §411.207. AUTHORITY OF PEACE OFFICER TO DISARM. (a) A peace officer who is acting in the lawful discharge of the officer's official duties may disarm a license holder at any time the officer reasonably believes it is necessary for the protection of the license holder, officer, or another individual. The peace officer shall return the handgun to the license holder before discharging the license holder from the scene if the officer determines that the license holder is not a threat to the officer, license holder, or another individual and if the license holder has not violated any provision of this subchapter or committed any other violation that results in the arrest of the license holder.

[RKlenka]

Did you get his name and number? Might be worth reporting it up his chain. Leaving a unsecured firearm in the open on a rear bumper sounds like a safety/training issue. From your description it sounds like you did everything as you where supposed to. You presented both your IDs when requested and where cooperative.

[The Annoyed Man]

AFIAK, you are not required to inform, unless asked. You are required to show your CHL along with TDL or other state issued ID if asked for ID. You are NOT required to provide ID unless asked, and there is no punishment on the books for failing to show your CHL. THAT requirement was removed from the law a couple of years ago. You are NOT required to inform the officer that you are armed unless asked, and many CHL holders would question the wisdom volunteering "I have a gun" to a police officer without being asked first. He DOES have the right to disarm you once he has been informed.

Unless you want this to keep on happening to you (and others), you need to write a letter to the chief of police, with a copy of the ticket you were presumably issued for the expired registration. That ticket will have the officer's information on it, assuming that you did not make a note of his name and badge number during the stop. Make it a formal complaint against that specific officer, and state that you expect this to be followed up on and you expect a reply from the chief with a formal letter of apology. Remind the chief that the law contains NO punishment for failure to show the CHL, even though it is required, and that you complied without being asked. Remind the chief that the law does NOT require you to inform the officer if you armed, but that you answered truthfully when asked, and identified what you were carrying and where, without any purpose of evasion or deception. Tell the chief that it is very bad policy to have officers on the loose, ignorant of the laws they are supposed to enforce, and abusive of compliant citizens.

Then sit back, pop a cold one, and see what develops.

[Cedar Park Dad]

You obeyed all legal (and sane requirements). Shouting out "I HAVE A GUN IN MY POCKET!!!" greatly increases your chances of being perforated.

I would submit a formal complaint but expect nothing. You live in the Berkeley wannabe city of Austin.

[TomV]

I think I would be writing a letter to APD. Find out who the shift captain is for that shift and cc the chief.

[getsome]

You obeyed all legal (and sane requirements). Shouting out "I HAVE A GUN IN MY POCKET!!!" greatly increases your chances of being perforated.

1000% agree with that. The best thing to do is file a complaint with the police monitor if you have the details for the officer or vehicle number or any information that would help them determine who the officer was... http://www.austintexas.gov/department/police-monitor

[rotor]

I wonder if in this case or similar cases if one had prepaid chl legal aid ( and I won't get into the debate about yeah or nay on these plans) whether they would be of better assistance with this, at least in making a complaint (if they would even touch this).

[getsome]

I wonder if in this case or similar cases if one had prepaid chl legal aid ( and I won't get into the debate about yeah or nay on these plans) whether they would be of better assistance with this, at least in making a complaint (if they would even touch this).

From what I've seen, if you weren't arrested for a crime, they won't touch it. They may be able to give you advice though.

[cb1000rider]

You can't anticipate the needs of every single officer that might stop you. IMHO, they differ. Some want to see your hands on top of that wheel, others immediately ask "what are you nervous about" if you put your hands on top of the wheel.. The easiest way to get this straight is to file a complaint - it'll at least get reviewed.

Jonestown has fired officers recently who behaved badly... Georgetown recently put one on administrative leave.

Complain soon - likely the recording of that traffic stop is still around and can be reviewed.

[oohrah]

I agree you should complain.

You said he had your CHL status already, but he can't get that from running your plates only, he needs to run your license (according to what I have learned on this forum).

[Vol Texan]

Excellent first post to TXtoothpick (the OP). Welcome to the best forum on the 'net!

[TXtoothpick]

Thank you all for the replies and the welcome.

I did contact a lawyer for that traffic stop incident who said he thought I didn't have much of a case, or maybe he just wasn't interested. I also contacted the Texas Civil Rights Project which reviewed my case and sent me a rejection letter stating that they "could not represent me in this matter".

That incident was not the only time this happened to me recently.

I had another unrelated CHL incident just a few weeks ago in front of the downtown Austin Police Department / Courthouse where a homeless guy was charging at and threatening to physically assault me and bothering other people in the Courthouse parking lot. I was armed at the time and in the parking lot. I decided to approach and wave over 2 officers who were walking across the street close by, right in front of the downtown Austin Police Department. The officers did nothing to the homeless guy who wasn't even approached by the officers, and they said people had complained before about him. But the officers did ask if I was carrying, I said yes, so they disarmed me, unloaded my revolver, took my boxcutter pocket knife, and THEN handcuffed me in broad daylight in front of bystanders until I could show them my CHL license, which they verified and they told me I did everything right. But they then told me that I should have told them that I had a gun on me when I first approached them (as I was being charged at by a crazy homeless guy?). This is a pattern, just like the traffic stop where another officer said essentially the same thing, that I had a duty to tell the officers that "I had a gun" before they even knew what was going on or asked me for my ID or CHL license. Bad guy goes free, I get handcuffed and told that I did something wrong.

I have developed a second-guess attitude as to whether I should even ask police for help now. Will they make up law or berate me or handcuff me in broad daylight for all the world to see, even after disarming me? How humiliating. And then tell me it was my fault because I didn't tell them immediately that "I have a gun" as I am approaching them quickly because I am being chased by a homeless crazy guy?

When citizens need police immediately should their priority be to stop and first explain their CHL status and beg police for protection or explain to them Police Texas CHL statutes? And the homeless guy gets away to repeat threats to people another day - no wonder downtown Austin has a very bad rap recently about violence and people getting assaulted. Law abiding people like me are increasingly avoiding the area and avoiding the police but the riffraff is free to stay and cause problems.

Sorry for the rant.

[Abraham]

Every organization has it's share of bullies who depend on the kindness of strangers...

I would be grateful if you'd pass along your experience with the Chief either by a phone call or letter.

No need for lawyers.

[nightmare69]

Contact internal affairs if you really want to file a complaint. They police the police.

[Keith B]

Contact internal affairs if you really want to file a complaint. They police the police.

In this case as the officer really didn't do anything illegal I would suggest a letter to the Chief. However, Austin's Chief is not the most pro-gun guy out there, so not sure how much good it will do. But if you don't get satisfaction on the corrective action with the officer then you can go to the council members or the Mayor for the resolution.