should we report a place to TABC?

[nightmare]

Clearly, I don't understand how the legality of this works. And thanks to everyone for being patient and educating me. Why would the TABC force them to display the signs? As far as red signs of not, I'm going off eyewitnesses saying the signs are not red. I could see the argument for the grounds, if they were the only retailer there, but they are'nt. There are multiple vendors selling many different things and because a couple vendors happen to sell alcohol, the "whole facility" is labeled as 51%?!? Shouldn't the vendors selling alcohol have the signs for their locations?

Based on the license search, it looks like there's one vendor selling alcohol at multiple points at the faire.

Based on my reading of the penal code, carrying handgun anywhere on the grounds is a felony for unlicensed people but it's only inside buildings for those of us with a CHL. I would carry on the grounds with a clear conscience as long as I stay out of buildings. However, I might need something like a stadium pal to accomplish that, which rules out the kilt.

[Keith B]

Clearly, I don't understand how the legality of this works. And thanks to everyone for being patient and educating me. Why would the TABC force them to display the signs? As far as red signs of not, I'm going off eyewitnesses saying the signs are not red. I could see the argument for the grounds, if they were the only retailer there, but they are'nt. There are multiple vendors selling many different things and because a couple vendors happen to sell alcohol, the "whole facility" is labeled as 51%?!? Shouldn't the vendors selling alcohol have the signs for their locations?

Based on the license search, it looks like there's one vendor selling alcohol at multiple points at the faire.

Based on my reading of the penal code, carrying handgun anywhere on the grounds is a felony for unlicensed people but it's only inside buildings for those of us with a CHL. I would carry on the grounds with a clear conscience as long as I stay out of buildings. However, I might need something like a stadium pal to accomplish that, which rules out the kilt.

Incorrect. TABC premises means all of the grounds if they are defined on the license. The easiest way to tell is if they allow you to remove the drink from the building and take it out on the grounds, then they are most likely defined on the license and are off limits to carry.

[A-R]

Keith, not sure if your reference to TABC definition of premises was to my post (which I've deleted while further researching). But I'm now not so sure it is technically illegal to carry in an open air property with a 51% sign.

as usual, I AM NOT A LAWYER ... but walk through this with me.

51% businesses are required to post the sign as described in relevant sections of code here:

Government Code 411.204. NOTICE REQUIRED ON CERTAIN PREMISES. (a) A business that has a permit or license issued under Chapter 25, 28, 32, 69, or 74, Alcoholic Beverage Code, and that derives 51 percent or more of its income from the sale of alcoholic beverages for on-premises consumption as determined by the Texas Alcoholic Beverage Commission under Section 104.06, Alcoholic Beverage Code, shall prominently display at each entrance to the business premises a sign that complies with the requirements of Subsection (c).

(c) The sign required under Subsections (a) and (b) must give notice in both English and Spanish that it is unlawful for a person licensed under this subchapter to carry a handgun on the premises. The sign must appear in contrasting colors with block letters at least one inch in height and must include on its face the number "51" printed in solid red at least five inches in height. The sign shall be displayed in a conspicuous manner clearly visible to the public.

The TABC defines a premises for the purpose of granting an "on-premises consumption" alcohol sales permit/license thusly:

Alcohol Beverage Code 11.49. PREMISES DEFINED; DESIGNATION OF LICENSED PREMISES. (a) In this code, "premises" means the grounds and all buildings, vehicles, and appurtenances pertaining to the grounds, including any adjacent premises if they are directly or indirectly under the control of the same person.

(b)(1) Subject to the approval of the commission or the administrator, and except as provided in Subsection (c) of this section, an applicant for a permit or license may designate a portion of the grounds, buildings, vehicles, and appurtenances to be excluded from the licensed premises.

BUT ... the "premises" definition in the Penal Code is the enforceable element of the crime of unlawful carry in a 51% location ...

Penal Code 46.035. UNLAWFUL CARRYING OF HANDGUN BY LICENSE HOLDER.

(b) A license holder commits an offense if the license holder intentionally, knowingly, or recklessly carries a handgun under the authority of Subchapter H, Chapter 411, Government Code, regardless of whether the handgun is concealed, on or about the license holder's person:

(1) on the premises of a business that has a permit or license issued under Chapter 25, 28, 32, 69, or 74, Alcoholic Beverage Code, if the business derives 51 percent or more of its income from the sale or service of alcoholic beverages for on-premises consumption, as determined by the Texas Alcoholic Beverage Commission under Section 104.06, Alcoholic Beverage Code;

(f) In this section:

(3) "Premises" means a building or a portion of a building. The term does not include any public or private driveway, street, sidewalk or walkway, parking lot, parking garage, or other parking area.

So, if I'm reading/analyzing/understanding all this correctly, regardless whether the TABC defines the licensed premises as "the grounds and all buildings, etc..." thus requiring the alcohol permittee/licensee to post the 51% sign for the entire TABC-defined premises, for purposes of enforcing the no-carry zone, the PC 46.035 definition of "premises" ("a building or a portion of a building") is the only relevant definition to establish the element of the crime of unlawful carry in a 51% location.

Thus, while the business is required to post the entire TABC-defined "premises", the CHL holder is only prohibited by PC 46.035 to carry inside any buildings or portions of building within the overall TABC-defined "premises".

I've not been to Sherwood Forest in McDade but driven by it multiple times on Austin-to-Houston trips along US 290 and it appears to be a large outdoor property/venue. If I'm reading all of this correctly, it would be technically legal to carry on the grounds of this venue, but not into any buildings (including restrooms )

Anyway, just my quick-n-dirty non-attorney analysis. Showing me I'm wrong is of course encouraged.

[Keith B]

A-R, this is a grey area in the law. TABC does define premises as the area defined by the license holder to dispense alcohol when they apply for the license, and that can be the entire grounds and parking lot. And, if enforcement is done on a 51% violation, it will probably be done by a TABC officer and not another LEO.

SO, while you may end up technically beating the rap on the definition of premise under 46.035, you may not beat the ride. IMO it's best to abide by the broader definition to make sure all laws are adhered to.

[corbmonster]

Thanks again everyone for educating me. It still seems crazy that an open area could have a 51% sign. It almost sounds like a good legal argument of being able to walk around the area while carrying, and not being by the vendors that sell booze. Not that I'm advocating trying it out. I'm not. Who want to deal with that hassle?

[A-R]

A-R, this is a grey area in the law. TABC does define premises as the area defined by the license holder to dispense alcohol when they apply for the license, and that can be the entire grounds and parking lot. And, if enforcement is done on a 51% violation, it will probably be done by a TABC officer and not another LEO.

SO, while you may end up technically beating the rap on the definition of premise under 46.035, you may not beat the ride. IMO it's best to abide by the broader definition to make sure all laws are adhered to.

Completely agree on "beat the rap ... "

But I'm wondering if making this precise distinction was in fact the clear intent of the authors of this statute. Otherwise, why include the unique definition of "premises" in PC 46.035 (caveat of course that intent could have been to define "premises" as related to the other myriad off-limits locations listed in this statute).

Perhaps Chas can shed some light?

[A-R]

Thanks again everyone for educating me. It still seems crazy that an open area could have a 51% sign. It almost sounds like a good legal argument of being able to walk around the area while carrying, and not being by the vendors that sell booze. Not that I'm advocating trying it out. I'm not. Who want to deal with that hassle?

I think it's another good legal argument to remove 51% locations from list of off-limits locations for those who are not drinking/intoxicated.

[jbarn]

A-R, this a grey areaes define premiknowingefined by the license holder to dispense alcohol when they apply for the license, and that can be the entire grounds and parking lot. And, if enforcement is done on a 51% violation, it will probably be done by a TABC officer and not another LEO.

SO, while you may end up technically beating the rap on the definition of premise under 46.035, you may not beat the ride. IMO it's best to abide by the broader definition to make sure all laws are adhered to.

Any enforcement of 51% has to be done under penal code 46.035. That is where the law is located. TABC officers are Peace Officers and take the same TCLEOSE/TCOLE test as all other peace officers. I cannot Imagine a TABC officer not knowing PC 46.035

I worry about that about as much as I do a cop not knowing a CHL allows me to carry a handgun at the mall.

[Keith B]

A-R, this a grey areaes define premiknowingefined by the license holder to dispense alcohol when they apply for the license, and that can be the entire grounds and parking lot. And, if enforcement is done on a 51% violation, it will probably be done by a TABC officer and not another LEO.

SO, while you may end up technically beating the rap on the definition of premise under 46.035, you may not beat the ride. IMO it's best to abide by the broader definition to make sure all laws are adhered to.

Any enforcement of 51% has to be done under penal code 46.035. That is where the law is located. TABC officers are Peace Officers and take the same TCLEOSE/TCOLE test as all other peace officers. I cannot Imagine a TABC officer not knowing PC 46.035

I worry about that about as much as I do a cop not knowing a CHL allows me to carry a handgun at the mall.

They may know 46.035, but the rub will be the difference in what they are taught to enforce as 'premise' vs premise defined in 46.035. I don't know that many field officers who are going to sit down during the incident and look at the full details of the law and make the call. They will more than likely cite the person under the definition they are used to and let the DA or Judge make the legal call.

[android]

Is the TABC the issuing authority for the 51% sign? Or should I be notifying anyone else?

TABC issues the liquor license.The sign is required to comply with the terms of the license.
They get a package of stuff. They are supposed to look at the license and pick the sign that matches the SIGN=[RED|BLUE] line on the license and post that one.

[corbmonster]

I emailed the "administrator" by the email address provided on sherwood forest website. I asked if they were owned by anyone. She said no, and was a partner with a guy named George. And I asked (politely) well, I'll just copy and paste :

"I was curious about the 51% sign you guys have. I was curious why? I mean, I figured you would make more $ on tickets than anything. And I figured you wouldn't sell the alcohol, but instead have vendors that do. And even if you did sell the booze yourself, why try to 51% the whole grounds? As I understood it 51% was to be for a premises, and by premises in TX penal code 46.035 is defined as, a building or a portion of a building. (for instance you can't 51% a square city block in Houston). And, I totally understand posting that where they sell alcohol. But surely there is so much more there than drinking. I like a good beer as much as the next guy, but I really just want to have fun with my girlfriend. Personally it feels disenfranchising, almost discriminating to be told you can't come in here. And if I may (because you really can't convey tone in text very well), this isn't meant to be rude in any way, or trying to start an argument, or anything like that. Just a conversation, and questions.

Thank you

And the reply:

I know nothing bout the liquor. Its an independent vendor. Renaissance Beverage Co.

I mentioned that I could not find an email for them and asked if I could have one to talk to them, but I have not received a reply. I think that they just get a packet in the mail and hammer up signs and don't know any better. Not that that is a valid excuse. It isn't. But I'd like to talk with them first before the TABC.

[jbarn]

A-R, this a grey areaes define premiknowingefined by the license holder to dispense alcohol when they apply for the license, and that can be the entire grounds and parking lot. And, if enforcement is done on a 51% violation, it will probably be done by a TABC officer and not another LEO.

SO, while you may end up technically beating the rap on the definition of premise under 46.035, you may not beat the ride. IMO it's best to abide by the broader definition to make sure all laws are adhered to.

Any enforcement of 51% has to be done under penal code 46.035. That is where the law is located. TABC officers are Peace Officers and take the same TCLEOSE/TCOLE test as all other peace officers. I cannot Imagine a TABC officer not knowing PC 46.035

I worry about that about as much as I do a cop not knowing a CHL allows me to carry a handgun at the mall.

They may know 46.035, but the rub will be the difference in what they are taught to enforce as 'premise' vs premise defined in 46.035. I don't know that many field officers who are going to sit down during the incident and look at the full details of the law and make the call. They will more than likely cite the person under the definition they are used to and let the DA or Judge make the legal call.

I just disagree.

[Dori]

I don't worry about being arrested for carrying at our (unposted) church either.

[JP171]

ok first thing, Sherwood Ren Faire is a 51% location because of the license issued. the owner of the License is Ren Bev Inc. it is owned by George Cullum of TRF. The whole location is off limits to CHL under the TABC Rules as Ren Bev is licensed to sell ALL alcoholic beverages at Sherwood. Yes I know all of the people involved with the 3 main Ren Faires in Texas. if you go to Scarborough Ren Faire in waxyerhatchet you will be on the premises of a private club and still cannot carry there

[Keith B]

They may know 46.035, but the rub will be the difference in what they are taught to enforce as 'premise' vs premise defined in 46.035. I don't know that many field officers who are going to sit down during the incident and look at the full details of the law and make the call. They will more than likely cite the person under the definition they are used to and let the DA or Judge make the legal call.

I just disagree.

Your prerogative. I tend to go with our resident expert on TABC matters when it comes to this viewtopic.php?f=7&t=66095&hilit=premises#p810280" onclick="window.open(this.href);return false;