Legal Carry on College Campuses
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Legal Carry on College Campuses
Howdy, all. I'm new to the forum, so I hope I'm posting this in the correct place. A member of the 1911 Forum recommended that I post over here to ge some feedback, especially from Chas.
As most, if not all of you, are aware, currently, under Texas law, CHL holders may not carry on the premises of an institution of higher education unless that institution has adopted a policy otherwise or given written permission to the license holder. See below for the relevant statute:
[QUOTE=Texas Penal Code]
Sec. 46.03. PLACES WEAPONS PROHIBITED. (a) A person commits an offense if the person intentionally, knowingly, or recklessly possesses or goes with a firearm, illegal knife, club, or prohibited weapon listed in Section 46.05(a):
(1) on the physical premises of a school or educational institution, any grounds or building on which an activity sponsored by a school or educational institution is being conducted, or a passenger transportation vehicle of a school or educational institution, whether the school or educational institution is public or private, unless pursuant to written regulations or written authorization of the institution;[/QUOTE]
I high lighted the last part because that is what I would like to discuss. During the last legislative session, the Legislature almost amended this to allow for legal carry by license holders, but it narrowly failed in the Senate. After exchanging e-mails with Alice Tripp of the Texas State Rifle Association, I confirmed that the language in the above section of the statute does allow the institutions themselves to adopt a policy that would allow for legal carry by license holders. Given that the community college where I teach is located in one of the reddest parts of a red state, I would like to introduce a measure to the faculty association to put before the board of regents a proposal to adopt rules that would do just that.
Some of the points I plan to bring up:
1. CHL holders have a much lower arrest rate for crimes than the overall public so pose much less of a risk of violence than non CHL holders. The "blood in the street" argument is an irrational fear that has never been supported by the facts.
2. None of the mass shootings at schools that have been increasing in frequency have been carried out by a concealed carry licensee. Prohibiting CHL holders from carrying on campus does not deter someone intent on committing murder from bringing a gun onto campus.
3. All of the recent mass shootings in the US have occurred in places that prohibit the lawful carrying of concealed firearms by licensees. Surveys of criminals in prisons have consistently shown that one of the strongest deterrents against crime is a criminal's fear that the intended victim may be armed. Not allowing CHL holders to exercise their right to carry on campus leaves the entire population on campus more vulnerable, not less. Allowing CHL holders to carry would serve as a deterrent to criminals on campus, especially those intent on murdering unarmed victims.
4. The right to self defense is one of the most fundamental of all human rights. Many faculty and staff work at odd hours and find ourselves alone in buildings late at night or on weekends. Prohibiting us from carrying a firearm for our protection violates our rights to self protection.
5. Many faculty and staff have CHLs. Under current policy, licensees must either leave their firearm at home or in their vehicle. Leaving firearms in vehicles on campus increases the likelihood that a criminal would gain access to a firearm in the process of burglarizing a vehicle on campus.
One of the arguments that someone just recently presented to me was that allowing faculty and students to be armed would inhibit freedom of speech. Personally, I don't see this as a valid concern. Long before I even owned firearms of my own (well, if you don't count the Rem 1100 shotgun my Dad gave me when I was 13 to got duck and goose hunting with him), I always thought that it was a prudent approach when dealing with people to assume that there is a good chance that they are armed. That has never stopped me from voicing my opinion or arguing my point with anyone. The only thing this approach limits is one's inclination to incite someone to violence. A rational argument, no matter how emotionally charged, should never be something that incites violence. Because the CHL law requires licensees to carry concealed, no one should know if a faculty member or student is armed, so how can their carrying a firearm intimidate anyone? My response to this line of argument will be to ask the instructors how many fist fights have broken out in their classrooms or offices while debating academic topics or even discussing student performance (or lack there-of). Personally, I have never seen an academic debate devolve into violence, so I do not think that individuals carrying firearms would increase the likelihood of violence. If anything, I think it would decrease the likelihood, because if one approaches individuals with the thought that there is a chance that they might be armed, one is likely to rely more on logic and reasoning and less on personal insults to make one's point, which decreases significantly the chance that an argument will become violent.
Any other points y'all can think of? Any suggestions you might have for better presenting the above points?
As a complete aside, here are some pics of my 1911, since all posts are better with pictures:
1978 Colt Series '70 with work done by John Harrison. The Silent Thunder Fusion is for concealed carry, the leather cross-draw holster is for when I'm out on hte ranch.
As most, if not all of you, are aware, currently, under Texas law, CHL holders may not carry on the premises of an institution of higher education unless that institution has adopted a policy otherwise or given written permission to the license holder. See below for the relevant statute:
[QUOTE=Texas Penal Code]
Sec. 46.03. PLACES WEAPONS PROHIBITED. (a) A person commits an offense if the person intentionally, knowingly, or recklessly possesses or goes with a firearm, illegal knife, club, or prohibited weapon listed in Section 46.05(a):
(1) on the physical premises of a school or educational institution, any grounds or building on which an activity sponsored by a school or educational institution is being conducted, or a passenger transportation vehicle of a school or educational institution, whether the school or educational institution is public or private, unless pursuant to written regulations or written authorization of the institution;[/QUOTE]
I high lighted the last part because that is what I would like to discuss. During the last legislative session, the Legislature almost amended this to allow for legal carry by license holders, but it narrowly failed in the Senate. After exchanging e-mails with Alice Tripp of the Texas State Rifle Association, I confirmed that the language in the above section of the statute does allow the institutions themselves to adopt a policy that would allow for legal carry by license holders. Given that the community college where I teach is located in one of the reddest parts of a red state, I would like to introduce a measure to the faculty association to put before the board of regents a proposal to adopt rules that would do just that.
Some of the points I plan to bring up:
1. CHL holders have a much lower arrest rate for crimes than the overall public so pose much less of a risk of violence than non CHL holders. The "blood in the street" argument is an irrational fear that has never been supported by the facts.
2. None of the mass shootings at schools that have been increasing in frequency have been carried out by a concealed carry licensee. Prohibiting CHL holders from carrying on campus does not deter someone intent on committing murder from bringing a gun onto campus.
3. All of the recent mass shootings in the US have occurred in places that prohibit the lawful carrying of concealed firearms by licensees. Surveys of criminals in prisons have consistently shown that one of the strongest deterrents against crime is a criminal's fear that the intended victim may be armed. Not allowing CHL holders to exercise their right to carry on campus leaves the entire population on campus more vulnerable, not less. Allowing CHL holders to carry would serve as a deterrent to criminals on campus, especially those intent on murdering unarmed victims.
4. The right to self defense is one of the most fundamental of all human rights. Many faculty and staff work at odd hours and find ourselves alone in buildings late at night or on weekends. Prohibiting us from carrying a firearm for our protection violates our rights to self protection.
5. Many faculty and staff have CHLs. Under current policy, licensees must either leave their firearm at home or in their vehicle. Leaving firearms in vehicles on campus increases the likelihood that a criminal would gain access to a firearm in the process of burglarizing a vehicle on campus.
One of the arguments that someone just recently presented to me was that allowing faculty and students to be armed would inhibit freedom of speech. Personally, I don't see this as a valid concern. Long before I even owned firearms of my own (well, if you don't count the Rem 1100 shotgun my Dad gave me when I was 13 to got duck and goose hunting with him), I always thought that it was a prudent approach when dealing with people to assume that there is a good chance that they are armed. That has never stopped me from voicing my opinion or arguing my point with anyone. The only thing this approach limits is one's inclination to incite someone to violence. A rational argument, no matter how emotionally charged, should never be something that incites violence. Because the CHL law requires licensees to carry concealed, no one should know if a faculty member or student is armed, so how can their carrying a firearm intimidate anyone? My response to this line of argument will be to ask the instructors how many fist fights have broken out in their classrooms or offices while debating academic topics or even discussing student performance (or lack there-of). Personally, I have never seen an academic debate devolve into violence, so I do not think that individuals carrying firearms would increase the likelihood of violence. If anything, I think it would decrease the likelihood, because if one approaches individuals with the thought that there is a chance that they might be armed, one is likely to rely more on logic and reasoning and less on personal insults to make one's point, which decreases significantly the chance that an argument will become violent.
Any other points y'all can think of? Any suggestions you might have for better presenting the above points?
As a complete aside, here are some pics of my 1911, since all posts are better with pictures:
1978 Colt Series '70 with work done by John Harrison. The Silent Thunder Fusion is for concealed carry, the leather cross-draw holster is for when I'm out on hte ranch.
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Re: Legal Carry on College Campuses
Nice Gun! I think your permit is expired. Welcome to the forum.
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Re: Legal Carry on College Campuses
Very nice gun! A little hard to get back to what you were saying before the pics, though.
Anyway. You should do some research into what the latest anti-gun arguments are in order to counter them before they are made. That, with the other points that you intend to make should provide a very solid statement of your case. But you may want to mentally prepare yourself for the possibility that the overly frothy emotional appeal could win out despite your facts to the contrary. In bringing your fight to them, you'll be playing on their field and by their rules - which probably won't be anywhere near a fair fight.
But the experience won't be a total loss if it doesn't swing your way. Whatever you'll learn will be valuable when it's time to start contacting the 2015 Legislature to bring the issue up again.
Anyway. You should do some research into what the latest anti-gun arguments are in order to counter them before they are made. That, with the other points that you intend to make should provide a very solid statement of your case. But you may want to mentally prepare yourself for the possibility that the overly frothy emotional appeal could win out despite your facts to the contrary. In bringing your fight to them, you'll be playing on their field and by their rules - which probably won't be anywhere near a fair fight.
But the experience won't be a total loss if it doesn't swing your way. Whatever you'll learn will be valuable when it's time to start contacting the 2015 Legislature to bring the issue up again.
Opinions expressed are subject to change without notice.
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NRA TSRA TFC CHL: 9/22/12, PSC Member: 10/2012
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Re: Legal Carry on College Campuses
In detailing the fact that a CHL could possibly impact an active-shooter in your school's buildings, be sure to use the info from one of the latest instances, where the shooter at the Arapahoe High School in Denver had to cut short his rampage because of a school resource officer responding loudly to the library forcing Pierson to shoot himself prematurely, ending the incident only 80 seconds after it started.
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Vietnam (AF) Veteran -- Amateur Extra class amateur radio operator: N5WD
Email: CHL@centurylink.net
Vietnam (AF) Veteran -- Amateur Extra class amateur radio operator: N5WD
Email: CHL@centurylink.net
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Re: Legal Carry on College Campuses
The mere knowledge of the presence of an armed opponent is often enough to provoke the mass shooter to commit suicide. IOW, rather than being a "cowboy", all I have to be is noisy (e.g. put the gun down or I will shoot!), and the shooter will often stop his rampage and kill himself.
The Constitution preserves the advantage of being armed which Americans possess over the people of almost every other nation where the governments are afraid to trust the people with arms. James Madison
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Re: Legal Carry on College Campuses
Although that can often happen, one had better not depend upon it or hesitate.baldeagle wrote:The mere knowledge of the presence of an armed opponent is often enough to provoke the mass shooter to commit suicide. IOW, rather than being a "cowboy", all I have to be is noisy (e.g. put the gun down or I will shoot!), and the shooter will often stop his rampage and kill himself.
The latest FBI Active Shooter report notes that when an officer is a solo responder (does not wait for the rest of the team before entering), the officer has a much greater chance of preventing additional murders. However, almost 1 in 5 are wounded or killed doing so, making it the most dangerous scenario in law enforcement.
Do not count on the coward committing suicide, as he may just shoot you!
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This froggie ain't boiling! Shall not be infringed! Μολών Λαβέ
This froggie ain't boiling! Shall not be infringed! Μολών Λαβέ
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Re: Legal Carry on College Campuses
Alice Tripp forwarded our correspondence to Tara at the NRA, who sent me a link to the following article:
http://concealedcampus.org/common-arguments/#1
Very useful stuff. This will make for some good talking points at the faculty association meeting, along with the statistics that Chas has so painstakingly compiled. viewtopic.php?f=7&t=17975
http://concealedcampus.org/common-arguments/#1
Very useful stuff. This will make for some good talking points at the faculty association meeting, along with the statistics that Chas has so painstakingly compiled. viewtopic.php?f=7&t=17975
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Re: Legal Carry on College Campuses
Often? Can you cite one instance where an unarmed person yelled at an active shooter who then stopped and killed himself?baldeagle wrote: all I have to be is noisy (e.g. put the gun down or I will shoot!), and the shooter will often stop his rampage and kill himself.
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Re: Legal Carry on College Campuses
Matter of fact I was taking a class at TCC NE Campus and was discussing campus carry with my CPR Instructor who is also a police officer. He said even if campus carry passed that TCC (at least the NE Campus) would not allow it. Kind of a bummer. I dont relish the idea of leaving a gun in my vehicle for 8 hours a day while in class. Not ok with that.
Re: Legal Carry on College Campuses
Did you ask him why?maximus2161 wrote:Matter of fact I was taking a class at TCC NE Campus and was discussing campus carry with my CPR Instructor who is also a police officer. He said even if campus carry passed that TCC (at least the NE Campus) would not allow it. Kind of a bummer. I dont relish the idea of leaving a gun in my vehicle for 8 hours a day while in class. Not ok with that.
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Re: Legal Carry on College Campuses
That depends on how the law is written. The last bill originally did not have an opt out provision. The "local control" language allowing boards of regents to adopt rules to opt out of the requirement to allow CHL carry was added as an amendment. According to the language of that amendment, a board could adopt a rule to opt out after soliciting input from faculty, staff and students. Does your CPR instructor know for a fact that the TCC Board of Regents would vote for rules to opt out or is he just speculating? I'm hoping that if I can get our faculty association to adopt a resolution calling on our our board to adopt rules allowing for CHL carry on campus that even if the board rejects it now that if the bill to allow for campus carry passes with an the same opt out language that the board will feel too pressured to pass rules to opt out.maximus2161 wrote:Matter of fact I was taking a class at TCC NE Campus and was discussing campus carry with my CPR Instructor who is also a police officer. He said even if campus carry passed that TCC (at least the NE Campus) would not allow it. Kind of a bummer. I dont relish the idea of leaving a gun in my vehicle for 8 hours a day while in class. Not ok with that.
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Re: Legal Carry on College Campuses
I seem to recall, perhaps incorrectly, that the law would be mandatory for state universities, but would allow private universities to opt out. I've had a personal interest in this since I work on the campus of a private university. At least I can keep my piece locked in the car in the parking lot.
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Re: Legal Carry on College Campuses
You can currently keep your weapon in your vehicle on public university campuses....just can't take them in the building.
Last edited by MarshalMatt on Tue Mar 25, 2014 2:05 pm, edited 1 time in total.
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Re: Legal Carry on College Campuses
No I didnt ask him why TCC would forbid it even if the law was passed. At that point I had moved on to a different discussion.
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Re: Legal Carry on College Campuses
BTW, I wish you luck...What is REALLY messed up is that my wife can't take her gun with her to school and lock it in her car on school property. I am glad the legislature changed this for colleges as at least I have it before and after class. With public schools, folks like my wife are fundamentally disarmed from the time they leave the house until they get home (unless they park off school property which is not possible for her). Anyway, if we can keep inching forward the little victories add up. Keep up the good fight!