Ammo Discussion

[SJRTX]

[Scott Murray]

Thanks for posting this, SJRTX. This is one of the pictures that was running through my mind when I wrote my previous post on this thread.

According to the FBI paper, and some of the previous comments, there should be no practical difference between the 9 mm 124 gr JHP, and the .357 SIG 125 JHP. They both have almost the same size projectile and penetration.

But they sure leave different impressions on the ballistic gelatin. It's hard to believe the effects on a body would be the same.

This is of more than academic interest to me. I have barrels for both .357 SIG and .40 S&W I can use with my Sig P239. I'd switched to the 357 based, in part, on this image. If I believe the FBI report, I'd be better off with the 40.

The FBI paper quotes sources saying that wounds from pistol rounds had very little damage other than the area actually touched by the bullet. I wonder how extensive those sources were. Had they actually studied wounds from some of the higher velocity rounds?

Scott

[Paladin]

But they sure leave different impressions on the balistic gelatin. It's hard to believe the effects on a body would be the same.

The temporary cavity can cause damage to the liver or brain. It's not much use besides that.

Honestly, I believe the advantage of the .357sig is not so much the JHP's temporary cavity, but the FMJ's penetration. Look at the specs for the .357sig and the specs for body armor.

[Scott Murray]

Thanks, Paladin.

In the image, is there a significance to the black vs red coloration in the gelatin? Is the black the permanent crush cavity, and the red the temporary stretch cavity? Or is it something else?

I may need to go back to my .40 S&W barrel...

Scott

[Paladin]

Thanks, Paladin.

In the image, is there a significance to the black vs red coloration in the gelatin? Is the black the permanent crush cavity, and the red the temporary stretch cavity? Or is it something else?

I may need to go back to my .40 S&W barrel...

Scott

The red looks to be temporary cavity, but the permanent cavity is a little unclear in the picture.

I think either the .357SIG or the .40 S&W will serve you well... although if I was up against Arroyo Sr. in Tyler, I'd preffer the .357SIG with some FMJ's

[stevie_d_64]

Thanks, Paladin.

In the image, is there a significance to the black vs red coloration in the gelatin? Is the black the permanent crush cavity, and the red the temporary stretch cavity? Or is it something else?

I may need to go back to my .40 S&W barrel...

Scott

I think they all look about the same in this test...Of course there are "some" differences, but not much to make me alter my caliber of choice...

I think it would be great to have a trauma doctor (who is not offended by the basis of the discussion) give their opinion based upon the potential wounding/stopping quality of various calibers and bullt types...

I know there is probably something already out there in the vast reaches of the internet...But a local guy who would post a medical opinion would be kinda neat...

My Nephew in Law is a great doctor (internal medicine), but not one I sit around and shoot the breeze about this kinda thing...They all tend to have had some time in ER's during their residencies, but probably don't talk about some of that stuff...

[Scott Murray]

Say Paladin,

If I decide I want to be ready to deal with an Arroyo Sr situation, and keep the 357 Sig for its potential against armor, what strategy would you recommend. I have a carrier for two spare mags:

1) Load all FMJ's. While not optimum for a non armored threat, they'd be good enough.

2) Load alternating rounds of FMJ and JHP. Would you recommend any particular pattern?

3) Load JHP's but have one spare magazine with FMJ's. If I perceive the threat is wearing armor, perhaps I'll have time to change magazines before engaging. This might have worked in the Tyler situation.

(I guess I'd have to steel myself against the disapproval of the Kennedy's and Shumer's of the world, who wouldn't want me to be using "cop killer" bullets)

Scott

[Paladin]

Say Paladin,

If I decide I want to be ready to deal with an Arroyo Sr situation, and keep the 357 Sig for its potential against armor, what strategy would you recommend. I have a carrier for two spare mags:

1) Load all FMJ's. While not optimum for a non armored threat, they'd be good enough.

2) Load alternating rounds of FMJ and JHP. Would you recommend any particular pattern?

3) Load JHP's but have one spare magazine with FMJ's. If I perceive the threat is wearing armor, perhaps I'll have time to change magazines before engaging. This might have worked in the Tyler situation.

(I guess I'd have to steel myself against the disapproval of the Kennedy's and Shumer's of the world, who wouldn't want me to be using "cop killer" bullets)

Scott

Could vary with your technique. I would stagger the JHP's and FMJ's and always shoot pairs of shots. You may not discover they have armor until too late.

[yerasimos]

If I decide I want to be ready to deal with an Arroyo Sr situation . . .

Practice shooting singles into a head-level 3"x5" index card from 15-25+yards, ideally from simulated cover, preferably on your feet to maintain mobility (standing & kneeling positions). Armed with only a pistol, I would not want to engage a wanna-be "martyr" or Arroyo-type bad guy any other way. (Better yet, get uniformed police officers or other good guys with rifles to drop him. A man has to know his limitations, remember? )

[txinvestigator]

Your handgun is not going to do much against body armor, FMJ or not (unless I missed something??)

Your liability of over-penatration with FMJ is too high, and just does not offer the reliable performance of hollow points. Carry all hollow points. Realize that if you decide to engage a rifle bearing hostile with your handgun you are at a significant disadvantage. If you engage, and body shots have no effect you must change to pelvic or head shots.

Better yet to obtain a rifle and engage from a stand-off position.

I can hit head shots from 15 yards consistantly with my 5 inch .45. From 25 yards, to be reliable, I need t be prone or braced. I can put MOST in the head from kneeling or standing, but not all. And not while moving or shooting quckly.

I have a rifle in the car, at home, and many at the office (which happens to be a range)

More reading

http://www.firearmstactical.com/briefs10.htm

[Paladin]

Armed with only a pistol, I would not want to engage a wanna-be "martyr" or Arroyo-type bad guy any other way. (Better yet, get uniformed police officers or other good guys with rifles to drop him. A man has to know his limitations, remember? )

True...but sometimes, like Arroyo's ex-wife and kid, you don't get get a choice in the matter.

[Paladin]

Better yet to obtain a rifle and engage from a stand-off position.

Certainly. I'm 100% with you on this part.