AD's don't just happen

[jmra]

I'm confident that everyone on this board does their absolute best to ensure an unintended discharge never happens. However, the difference between unintended, accidental, and negligent are degrees of carelessness I suppose. We do our part to ensure that it never happens, but being human does figure into the equation. To say accidents happen does not mean they have to happen. So, we all do what we can to limit the probability of an accident.

I don't believe that to be true.

[Excaliber]

What's the difference in accidental and negligence? Anyway if there was such a thing as no accidents, there would be no traffic deaths.

An example of the difference would be a slam fire when loading a semiauto (like those that happened to some owners of the XDs) (accident - there was no intent to discharge and the action taken could not reasonably be expected to result in said discharge), and

Pulling the trigger on a gun you thought was unloaded when it wasn't (negligence - assumed an unverified unloaded condition and deliberately did something that should reasonably be expected to result in a discharge of a loaded gun).

[Shoot Straight]

There are many different kinds of accidental discharges that are not the fault of the gun owner.

To wit: The holster that over time becomes deformed and snags the trigger...and on and on.

I agree that's not intentional but I think a reasonable man will agree the shooter is not blameless. They're as much at fault as someone who drives a car with bald tires and worn out brakes and crashes because the car doesn't stop fast enough. We are responsible for maintaining our gear and irresponsible if we don't.

[WildBill]

There are many different kinds of accidental discharges that are not the fault of the gun owner.

To wit: The holster that over time becomes deformed and snags the trigger...and on and on.

I agree that's not intentional but I think a reasonable man will agree the shooter is not blameless. They're as much at fault as someone who drives a car with bald tires and worn out brakes and crashes because the car doesn't stop fast enough. We are responsible for maintaining our gear and irresponsible if we don't.

Blame is not the same as negligence.

Please read Charles Cotton's post. It is a gift. Good Luck!

[thatguy]

I'm confident that everyone on this board does their absolute best to ensure an unintended discharge never happens. However, the difference between unintended, accidental, and negligent are degrees of carelessness I suppose. We do our part to ensure that it never happens, but being human does figure into the equation. To say accidents happen does not mean they have to happen. So, we all do what we can to limit the probability of an accident.

I would agree.

My googlefoo at work..." The law recognizes three degrees of negligence: (1) ordinary or simple, (2) gross, and (3) willful, wanton, and reckless."

We have safety violations in IDPA for example, that result in a verbal warning or other safety violations that result in being DQ'ed quantifying that we recognize "levels" of safety violations, in other words we are only human.

We call them traffic "accidents" but I would estimate that most are a degree of negligence, talking on the phone, texting, eating, drinking, speeding, beating the light etc... Some of us on this forum (including myself) are guilty of said infractions.

[Shoot Straight]

Blame is not the same as negligence.

So true. People are also usually to blame when they do something intentionally, knowingly, or recklessly.

Back to the subject of accidental discharges, when NTSB calls most crashes "accidents" instead of "pilot error" I'm willing to reconsider my choice of words. Until then, all I can say is good luck avoiding accidents!

[HerbM]

I'm confident that everyone on this board does their absolute best to ensure an unintended discharge never happens. However, the difference between unintended, accidental, and negligent are degrees of carelessness I suppose. We do our part to ensure that it never happens, but being human does figure into the equation. To say accidents happen does not mean they have to happen. So, we all do what we can to limit the probability of an accident.

I don't believe that to be true.

I don't believe it either.

Since keeping the finger OFF the trigger is pretty much a digital, boolean effort: You keep the trigger clear or you don't.

Not much of a grey area there nor room for "degrees of carelessness."

And since KEEPING THE FINGER OFF THE TRIGGER pretty much eliminates virtually all unintended discharges this leaves the vast majority as Negligent.

One might allow some "degree of carelessness" for those who have NEVER had any proper education in trigger safety, but that shouldn't apply to anyone here nor to any of the people we have taught or introduced to firearms.

This also points up the responsibility of ALL OF US to ensure proper trigger safety among those we assist, and even those we encounter at the range or other training areas.

--
HerbM

[rotor]

Because we are humans accidents will always occur. We train as much as possible but none of us are infallible. Please raise your hand now if you have never had an accident of any kind. The thought that every accidental discharge is negligence is false in my opinion. I am on record now.

[JSThane]

I would posit that every accidental or unintended discharge is preventable... but not all are negligent. In the case of the protruding firing pin, it's not normal to check the bolt face on a firearm every time you load it. You expect it to work properly; when it does not, you are surprised. It was an accident, a failure of equipment. If you holster your shirt in the trigger guard of your Glock and crease your buttocks, that's a bit more negligent. You didn't actively -DO- anything to cause the weapon to fire. You did fail to clear your shirt-tail from the holster. I'm still willing to call this an "accident," albeit one with an element of unintended negligence. However, if you point the weapon and pull the trigger without checking the chamber, that is intentional negligence, and any lead leaving the barrel can NOT be called an "accident."
So, way I see it, you have three levels of unintended discharge, instead of two.

AFD - Accidental Failure Discharge
AND - Accidental Negligent Discharge
WND - Willful Negligent Discharge

One can muddy the waters even more by picking and choosing examples, but it mostly falls into those categories for me. I would also bet that the AFD is by far the rarest, and that a lot of ANDs were really WNDs, but played down to alleviate blame.

[HerbM]

I consider putting your finger on the trigger when not intending to fire as akin to driving while drinking or driving well beyond the speed of other traffic.

These aren't the same as getting caught by surprise when your breaks fail nor even having a lapse in attention that allows you to drive to close OCCASSIONALLY and getting caught by someone stopping short.

They are no where near the problem of being rear ended through NO contribution of your own or getting hit by a drunk driver who is going to fast and runs the red light.

While even in these extreme cases you MIGHT have prevented the 'accident' through high level defensive driving, their is real negligence on the part of the person who CAUSED the 'accident'.

This isn't like tripping and falling. This isn't the same as an equipment malfunction.

When you are purposely doing something you know to be unsafe then that is negligence if things go bad.

Since keeping your finger off of the trigger is pretty much all that is necessary to eliminate 98% of 'accidental discharges' you do the math.

--
HerbM

[MeMelYup]

(negligence - deliberately did something that should reasonably be expected to result in a discharge of a loaded gun).

Substitute would for should and you have the definition of ND.

[bbobb]

(negligence - deliberately did something that should reasonably be expected to result in a discharge of a loaded gun).

Substitute would for should and you have the definition of ND.

Reaching blindly into a bag containing a loaded gun is known to cause guns to fire. Not always but often enough that its like playing Russian Roulette.

[03Lightningrocks]

I just wanted to tag the thread so I can read further replies. Reading the post by Charles gives me pause to some of the times I too have called a discharge negligent. I suppose if I tried hard enough, I could find something negligent at some point that caused the unwanted discharge with any and all of these situations.

Is it negligent to put an unholstered weapon in a purse or pocket when one knows that keys or a stray finger could accidently pull the trigger? Is it negligent to use a worn out holster when one knows it could snag the trigger and accidentally fire the weapon? Is it negligent to put a loaded gun under the seat with no holster when we know it could slide around and possibly snag something? Most of the time, one can look back at a negligent action that lead to the accidental discharge. Even if a weapon is dropped to the floor and goes off, could we look back to negligence in the way the firearm was being carried? Am I excused from all the above for negligence if I can rightfully claim I did not know these actions were a risk?

This is pretty sticky stuff if you ask me. A gun is a mechanical device that demands certain handling specifications. Could the line be drawn at a place where every single specification for proper handling was met but the gun just up and fired itself anyway?

I am not pretending to know the answer. I am pointing out that almost every situation a gun fires when it was not intended to could be traced back to negligence at some level.

Here is a thought. Maybe every single time a gun is fired when a person did not intend the gun to fire is an accident. From there the law will have to look for a level of negligence that lead to the firing of the weapon?

But what if the person intentionally pulled the trigger thinking the gun was unloaded? Any reasonable person would expect the gun to fire but there are many times a person claims they did not know it was loaded. Is it negligence for a person who knows about guns but accidental for the person who knows little to nothing about guns? If this is the case, lord help the folks always giving advice on guns in this forum. If you have a accidental discharge that hits a person, could they look at your posts and claim you were an expert so any discharge was negligence... or worse... intentional.

[HerbM]

...
Is it negligent to put an unholstered weapon in a purse or pocket when one knows that keys or a stray finger could accidently pull the trigger? Is it negligent to use a worn out holster when one knows it could snag the trigger and accidentally fire the weapon? Is it negligent to put a loaded gun under the seat with no holster when we know it could slide around and possibly snag something? Most of the time, one can look back at a negligent action that lead to the accidental discharge. Even if a weapon is dropped to the floor and goes off, could we look back to negligence in the way the firearm was being carried? Am I excused from all the above for negligence if I can rightfully claim I did not know these actions were a risk?
[quote/=]

Yes and yes (snagging the trigger). If you don't use reasonable protection for the trigger when you know better then that is negligence.

Yes, maybe (being dropped): If you expected that the way you were carrying it was unsafe then that would be negligence when you drop fired it.

BTW: Almost no modern guns in good order will do that. That is something that MOSTLY happens on TV and in Movies.

You are GENERALLY excused if you can claim that -- except for things that you could easily have predicted from your own daily life and knowledge -- but there is some degree of negligence in not finding out the correct practice.

Did you READ the owner's manual on your firearm? Most have one. Most have information about safe handling.

Here's one for you that wasn't covered in the Glock manual (I found out by TESTING not by firing it): One of my Glocks (maybe all for all I know) when cocked and placed in the included (tupperware-like) case would "fire" if pressure was placed on the case (e.g., by sitting on it). The place holding pin in the center was DESIGNED to go through the trigger guard in what I believe is a defective design.

Moral: Don't place a loaded Glock in the STOCK CASE.

...
This is pretty sticky stuff if you ask me. A gun is a mechanical device that demands certain handling specifications. Could the line be drawn at a place where every single specification for proper handling was met but the gun just up and fired itself anyway?

Sure, but it practically never happens -- NOT NEVER, but close to it.

...
I am not pretending to know the answer. I am pointing out that almost every situation a gun fires when it was not intended to could be traced back to negligence at some level.

Here is a thought. Maybe every single time a gun is fired when a person did not intend the gun to fire is an accident. From there the law will have to look for a level of negligence that lead to the firing of the weapon?

But what if the person intentionally pulled the trigger thinking the gun was unloaded? Any reasonable person would expect the gun to fire but there are many times a person claims they did not know it was loaded. Is it negligence for a person who knows about guns but accidental for the person who knows little to nothing about guns? If this is the case, lord help the folks always giving advice on guns in this forum. If you have a accidental discharge that hits a person, could they look at your posts and claim you were an expert so any discharge was negligence... or worse... intentional.

One of the simple rules of firearms safety (and there are only really 3 or 4) is to treat all firearms as loaded.

This is actually one of the worst forms of HIGHLY NEGLIGENT DISCHARGE.

A child or idiot might claim not to know the rules of safety and this is what I indicated above is part of OUR responsibility as firearms owners:

Teach people new to firearms the rules at the start.

Insist they be followed.

And again, the manual probably explained this was unsafe. Read the manual.

I read the manual on my new automobile cover to cover -- and I watch the included video (twice) -- seems reasonable to at least read the very spared firearm manual.

RTFM -- Read the Fine Manual -- is a good policy for most devices.

[03Lightningrocks]

You may have missed the point of my post. My questions were all meant to be hypothetical in response to the post by Charles. I didn't mean it to cause the board firearms experts to give me lessons on firearms safety. If you read back, the point of Charles post was to point out we may be raising the bar for ourselves when we post negligence after reading about an AD. Based on that, any responses to my posts pointing out the obvious, may be responses that can bury the responder if the worse happens to them.

To be honest with you, it was hard sorting through the way you did that copy and answer. I may have totally read it wrong. If i did, all I can say is OOPS.