The Incandescent Light Bulb R.I.P. ?

[WildBill]

For the record. You two aren't doing much to help the situation.

Sorry, I couldn't help myself.

[talltex]

Freon R12 was banned I believe in 1995. What facts should I check? Virtually every car air conditioner used R12 prior to the ban. The ban was to "protect the ozone layer" You could go to Mexico and get R12 at any time so I guess we only protected the ozone layer across the US. There were never successful retrofits for R12 cars so if you wanted an air conditioned car in Texas you had to buy a new one. Same thing is happening now with CO2 tax but countries like China can dump as much as they want into the atmosphere.

OK I can agree with the spirit, but not the facts, first of all "Freon" is a brand name owned by DuPont and it encompasses many types of refrigerant, so yes R-12 or refrigerant formula 12 is banned, because DuPont lost the patent not because of anything else no matter what the politicians say. so yea check your facts. All CFC's or chlorinated fluorocarbons were banned at that time including R-502, R-12, R605 and several others, HCFC's are due to be banned very soon as in the next 2 years. All this is occurring because DuPont lost the patents and its been couched in lies by many including Al Gore. The countries that are signatory to the Montreal Protocol and no Mexico and most 3rd world countries are not signers as they don't have large use of the product, agreed to phase out any and all refrigerants containing Chlorine because of Ozone damage as the chlorine binds with the Oxygen molecule and damages the Ozone by removing 1 oxygen molecule but its a lie that we are causing global warming

as far as successful retrofit, its not necessary to change crap, r-134A is not quite as good as 12 but the oil is miscible in small systems, does not cause problems and works just fine, on top of that it has been addressed to show you that again you need to check your facts there is a drop in replacement that works just as well as r-12 it costs more but works just fine same as there are several drop in replacements for r-22 the stuff you use in your house AC so please don't compare apples the libtards and don't speak on a subject you obviously know nothing about

This is really getting run into the ground, but I just can't help myself... JP171 is pretty much correct...my earlier post on this thread addressed how most laws and regulations get changed...to benefit someone or some group and allow them to make more money...period. There are still some misconceptions being put out here: first R-12 has NEVER been banned. You can still buy R-12...BUT it costs over10 times as much as R-134 (the current automotive refrigerant)...the regulations were changed to protect Dupont's cash cow, and to benefit some others in the automotive industry. By ensuring that the market for R-12 would be constantly diminishing over time, it discouraged other chemical companies from moving into the market when the R-12 patent expired, which is why it's so expensive today. What the regulation change actually did, was require all vehicle manufacturers to change over to R-134 on new vehicles by 1995, which ensured a new and constantly growing market for the R-12's patented replacement R-134 . Most started changing over earlier...the Jeep Grand Cherokee was the first model to already have the new R-134 system in place when it was introduced in 1993. The new regulations also required all dealers and repair facilities to purchase all new equipment to service the new systems as well as requiring them to buy "recovery stations" so that neither R-12 or R-134 was released into the atmosphere when the systems were worked on, which was a big benefit to all the equipment manufacturers because the government regulations forced the dealers to buy their products (hmmm sounds like a preview of obamacare...lol). The idea that these new "recovery stations" would save the ozone layer sounded like a noble sentiment, but they failed to consider that all the "Freon" had already been released into the atmosphere BEFORE the people bring it in to be repaired. They bring it in because it's NOT COOLING...and it's not cooling because all the Freon has leaked out...either through a hole in the evaporator core, or the compressor seal, or one of the hoses or fittings. No one drives up and says they'd like to have their Freon changed. Here endeth the lesson.

[03Lightningrocks]

I forgive you, wildbill.

[philip964]

...."Abraham"......
True. It reminds me of trying to something for nothing. You get 70W for the price of 20W [but the bulb costs more!]

I have learned the hard way that temperature is possibly more important than lumens. At one point my living room looked like my reptile terrarium. I had to purchase new bulbs in the correct color range!

Color temperature is in degrees Kelvin such as 5000K. That would be a very blue white (probably close to daylight) Incandescent is around 3000K, which is a nice warm white. Incandescent produces a full spectrum of color without spikes in color. It has a smooth curve heavy on the red. Fluorescent, Metal halide, Sodium and LED produce color spikes. Fluorescent has spikes in the green and purple areas. That's why things don't look as pretty under fluorescent. LED is not as bad, but it usually only has a color rendering index of around 80% where incandescent is much higher.

LED is getting better all the time. The color rendition index and the efficiency are improving every year. But for beauty incandescent still holds the prize. Warm white LED's 2800K can look pink. To me 3000k to 3200k is where you want to be unless its for a work environment where your trying to keep people awake.

But you need to experiment with the color temperature to see where you like it. Comparing it to incandescent side by side is one way. That is if you have any incandescent left in your arsenal.

[rotor]

To beat this to death I admit I am not as knowledgeable as the rest on this. I took my info from Wikipedia.

Dichlorodifluoromethane (R-12), is a colorless gas, and usually sold under the brand name Freon-12, is a chlorofluorocarbon halomethane (CFC), used as a refrigerant and aerosol spray propellant. Complying with the Montreal Protocol, its manufacture was banned in the United States along with many other countries in 1996 due to concerns about damage to the ozone layer.[2] It is soluble in many organic solvents. Dichlorodifluoromethane was also the main component of Silly String. R-12 cylinders are colored white.

So I am bad! Let's go back to light bulbs.

[jimlongley]

...."Abraham"......
True. It reminds me of trying to something for nothing. You get 70W for the price of 20W [but the bulb costs more!]

I have learned the hard way that temperature is possibly more important than lumens. At one point my living room looked like my reptile terrarium. I had to purchase new bulbs in the correct color range!

Very true! They should start putting the temperature on the packaging.

I tried using some "grow" lights, thinking that would be closest to sunlight, but I didn't like it.

Color temp is on all LED packages that I have seen, sometimes carefully hidden, and most CFLs. If there is no color temp on a CFL, you can assume it's in the 2700K range.

[jimlongley]

Freon R12 was banned I believe in 1995. What facts should I check? Virtually every car air conditioner used R12 prior to the ban. The ban was to "protect the ozone layer" You could go to Mexico and get R12 at any time so I guess we only protected the ozone layer across the US. There were never successful retrofits for R12 cars so if you wanted an air conditioned car in Texas you had to buy a new one. Same thing is happening now with CO2 tax but countries like China can dump as much as they want into the atmosphere.

OK I can agree with the spirit, but not the facts, first of all "Freon" is a brand name owned by DuPont and it encompasses many types of refrigerant, so yes R-12 or refrigerant formula 12 is banned, because DuPont lost the patent not because of anything else no matter what the politicians say. so yea check your facts. All CFC's or chlorinated fluorocarbons were banned at that time including R-502, R-12, R605 and several others, HCFC's are due to be banned very soon as in the next 2 years. All this is occurring because DuPont lost the patents and its been couched in lies by many including Al Gore. The countries that are signatory to the Montreal Protocol and no Mexico and most 3rd world countries are not signers as they don't have large use of the product, agreed to phase out any and all refrigerants containing Chlorine because of Ozone damage as the chlorine binds with the Oxygen molecule and damages the Ozone by removing 1 oxygen molecule but its a lie that we are causing global warming

as far as successful retrofit, its not necessary to change crap, r-134A is not quite as good as 12 but the oil is miscible in small systems, does not cause problems and works just fine, on top of that it has been addressed to show you that again you need to check your facts there is a drop in replacement that works just as well as r-12 it costs more but works just fine same as there are several drop in replacements for r-22 the stuff you use in your house AC so please don't compare apples the libtards and don't speak on a subject you obviously know nothing about

Dupont never "lost" the patent, the patent expired, not quite the same thing, especially from someone so intent on getting the facts straight.

In 1996, my Jeep Dealer replaced the R12 in my 1993 Grand Cherokee with R134, swore it was a government requirement and that it was same for same, and it not only did not cool near as well, it did cause problems that had to be fixed by Jeep, but not until after I went to war with them. Of course the puncture that the dealership put in the evaporator when the tech rammed a thermometer into the coils might have had something to do with it.

[talltex]

Dupont never "lost" the patent, the patent expired, not quite the same thing, especially from someone so intent on getting the facts straight.

In 1996, my Jeep Dealer replaced the R12 in my 1993 Grand Cherokee with R134, swore it was a government requirement and that it was same for same, and it not only did not cool near as well, it did cause problems that had to be fixed by Jeep, but not until after I went to war with them. Of course the puncture that the dealership put in the evaporator when the tech rammed a thermometer into the coils might have had something to do with it.

Your 1993 Jeep Grand Cherokee should never have had R-12 in it...they all came with the R-134a system from the factory...the first domestic model to do so. Chrysler had built the all new "state of the art" Jefferson Avenue assembly plant in Detroit, just for the Grand Cherokee. That was the first year for the Grand Cherokee and that was a big deal...it garnered a lot of publicity because it would never have to be retrofitted like the other 1993 models.

[JP171]

Freon R12 was banned I believe in 1995. What facts should I check? Virtually every car air conditioner used R12 prior to the ban. The ban was to "protect the ozone layer" You could go to Mexico and get R12 at any time so I guess we only protected the ozone layer across the US. There were never successful retrofits for R12 cars so if you wanted an air conditioned car in Texas you had to buy a new one. Same thing is happening now with CO2 tax but countries like China can dump as much as they want into the atmosphere.

OK I can agree with the spirit, but not the facts, first of all "Freon" is a brand name owned by DuPont and it encompasses many types of refrigerant, so yes R-12 or refrigerant formula 12 is banned, because DuPont lost the patent not because of anything else no matter what the politicians say. so yea check your facts. All CFC's or chlorinated fluorocarbons were banned at that time including R-502, R-12, R605 and several others, HCFC's are due to be banned very soon as in the next 2 years. All this is occurring because DuPont lost the patents and its been couched in lies by many including Al Gore. The countries that are signatory to the Montreal Protocol and no Mexico and most 3rd world countries are not signers as they don't have large use of the product, agreed to phase out any and all refrigerants containing Chlorine because of Ozone damage as the chlorine binds with the Oxygen molecule and damages the Ozone by removing 1 oxygen molecule but its a lie that we are causing global warming

as far as successful retrofit, its not necessary to change crap, r-134A is not quite as good as 12 but the oil is miscible in small systems, does not cause problems and works just fine, on top of that it has been addressed to show you that again you need to check your facts there is a drop in replacement that works just as well as r-12 it costs more but works just fine same as there are several drop in replacements for r-22 the stuff you use in your house AC so please don't compare apples the libtards and don't speak on a subject you obviously know nothing about

Dupont never "lost" the patent, the patent expired, not quite the same thing, especially from someone so intent on getting the facts straight.

In 1996, my Jeep Dealer replaced the R12 in my 1993 Grand Cherokee with R134, swore it was a government requirement and that it was same for same, and it not only did not cool near as well, it did cause problems that had to be fixed by Jeep, but not until after I went to war with them. Of course the puncture that the dealership put in the evaporator when the tech rammed a thermometer into the coils might have had something to do with it.

ok so DuPont didnt loose the patent it expired and the gubbermint refused to allow another extension( as the fact that it was being produced under license by about 20 different companies) of the patents for the types of refrigerant that were phased out, not that it makes any appreciable difference to the effective action. I did in my post say that r 134a was not as good and do agree in a r 12 system it wouldn't be as good as there is a metering device that is calibrated for r 12 not 134a so yea you loose a little capacity. If a tech "rammed" a thermometer in the coils or coil, condenser coil then that was done out of spite not any functional need. Also R-134a will be pahsed out by the EU in 2017 and the US by 2020 its not patent driven this time but rather by a study that shows the refrigerant stays as as refrigerant for almost 6 months up in the O3 layer and causes Al Gore to spout more hot air

[Dragonfighter]

<SNIP>

Color temperature is in degrees Kelvin such as 5000K.
<SNIP>

I have to confess a bit of ignorance and ashamedly so being both an artist and science nerd. I had to research how light color came to be measured with the decidedly "absolute" scale for measuring entropy. I have just read that the comparison came from William Kelvin's heating of a block of carbon and noting the color of the glow. Fascinating thread, carry on.

[jimlongley]

Dupont never "lost" the patent, the patent expired, not quite the same thing, especially from someone so intent on getting the facts straight.

In 1996, my Jeep Dealer replaced the R12 in my 1993 Grand Cherokee with R134, swore it was a government requirement and that it was same for same, and it not only did not cool near as well, it did cause problems that had to be fixed by Jeep, but not until after I went to war with them. Of course the puncture that the dealership put in the evaporator when the tech rammed a thermometer into the coils might have had something to do with it.

Your 1993 Jeep Grand Cherokee should never have had R-12 in it...they all came with the R-134a system from the factory...the first domestic model to do so. Chrysler had built the all new "state of the art" Jefferson Avenue assembly plant in Detroit, just for the Grand Cherokee. That was the first year for the Grand Cherokee and that was a big deal...it garnered a lot of publicity because it would never have to be retrofitted like the other 1993 models.

Sorry, mine came with R12 in it. Don't know if it was an early model (it was purchased in the spring of 1993) or what, but it most definitely did not come with r134, it even stated R12 in the manual. I don't have the vehicle any more, it only lasted me until 2006, so I can't look up the paperwork or whatever, but I still remember the battle with that Jeep dealership and with Jeep overall.

[jimlongley]

Freon R12 was banned I believe in 1995. What facts should I check? Virtually every car air conditioner used R12 prior to the ban. The ban was to "protect the ozone layer" You could go to Mexico and get R12 at any time so I guess we only protected the ozone layer across the US. There were never successful retrofits for R12 cars so if you wanted an air conditioned car in Texas you had to buy a new one. Same thing is happening now with CO2 tax but countries like China can dump as much as they want into the atmosphere.

OK I can agree with the spirit, but not the facts, first of all "Freon" is a brand name owned by DuPont and it encompasses many types of refrigerant, so yes R-12 or refrigerant formula 12 is banned, because DuPont lost the patent not because of anything else no matter what the politicians say. so yea check your facts. All CFC's or chlorinated fluorocarbons were banned at that time including R-502, R-12, R605 and several others, HCFC's are due to be banned very soon as in the next 2 years. All this is occurring because DuPont lost the patents and its been couched in lies by many including Al Gore. The countries that are signatory to the Montreal Protocol and no Mexico and most 3rd world countries are not signers as they don't have large use of the product, agreed to phase out any and all refrigerants containing Chlorine because of Ozone damage as the chlorine binds with the Oxygen molecule and damages the Ozone by removing 1 oxygen molecule but its a lie that we are causing global warming

as far as successful retrofit, its not necessary to change crap, r-134A is not quite as good as 12 but the oil is miscible in small systems, does not cause problems and works just fine, on top of that it has been addressed to show you that again you need to check your facts there is a drop in replacement that works just as well as r-12 it costs more but works just fine same as there are several drop in replacements for r-22 the stuff you use in your house AC so please don't compare apples the libtards and don't speak on a subject you obviously know nothing about

Dupont never "lost" the patent, the patent expired, not quite the same thing, especially from someone so intent on getting the facts straight.

In 1996, my Jeep Dealer replaced the R12 in my 1993 Grand Cherokee with R134, swore it was a government requirement and that it was same for same, and it not only did not cool near as well, it did cause problems that had to be fixed by Jeep, but not until after I went to war with them. Of course the puncture that the dealership put in the evaporator when the tech rammed a thermometer into the coils might have had something to do with it.

ok so DuPont didnt loose the patent it expired and the gubbermint refused to allow another extension( as the fact that it was being produced under license by about 20 different companies) of the patents for the types of refrigerant that were phased out, not that it makes any appreciable difference to the effective action. I did in my post say that r 134a was not as good and do agree in a r 12 system it wouldn't be as good as there is a metering device that is calibrated for r 12 not 134a so yea you loose a little capacity. If a tech "rammed" a thermometer in the coils or coil, condenser coil then that was done out of spite not any functional need. Also R-134a will be pahsed out by the EU in 2017 and the US by 2020 its not patent driven this time but rather by a study that shows the refrigerant stays as as refrigerant for almost 6 months up in the O3 layer and causes Al Gore to spout more hot air

Just making sure you got your facts straight.

And yes, the tech did it out of spite. I was in the dealership arguing with the service manager about the fact that it was not cooling very well (this was before I knew what they had done) and he had the tech who had worked on the vehicle take me out to show me that it was cooling down to spec temps. The tech reached under the dash with his turkey thermometer and shoved it hard up into the works. That evening my wife complained about something dripping on her feet. I took it back to the dealership the next day, by which time all of the refrigerant had leaked out and the compressor locked up. Eventually they replaced almost the entire ac system, but they never did pay my wife for the shoes that were ruined by the refrigerant leaking on them.

The vehicle was purchased from a dealership in Albany NY, and then I was transferred to IL. When I took it in for scheduled service, the local dealership wanted me to take it back to NY for service; I called Jeep and they confirmed that my plan was good anywhere. When the power steering went out, under warranty, they wanted me to take it back to NY for warranty repair; I called Jeep and they confirmed that warranty repair was anywhere. When I took it in due to the trailer towing harness fusing together (a memo or service notice, I don't remember, but it was internal and I only found out about the notice because the son of a co-worker worked at a different Jeep dealer and told me about it) they wanted me to take it back to NY; Et Cetera. And the AC thing was the final straw, because that time it was only in for a checkup before a trip, and we wound up without the vehicle for the trip. Lots more to the tale, but after that I started using a different dealership (of course many miles away due to Jeep's company rules about separation) instead of the one that was walking distance from my workplace.

[jmra]

I thought we were talking about light bulbs.

[Keith B]

Please move back to the original topic and drop the freon discussion.

[WildBill]

...."Abraham"......
True. It reminds me of trying to something for nothing. You get 70W for the price of 20W [but the bulb costs more!]

I have learned the hard way that temperature is possibly more important than lumens. At one point my living room looked like my reptile terrarium. I had to purchase new bulbs in the correct color range!

Very true! They should start putting the temperature on the packaging.

I tried using some "grow" lights, thinking that would be closest to sunlight, but I didn't like it.

Color temp is on all LED packages that I have seen, sometimes carefully hidden, and most CFLs. If there is no color temp on a CFL, you can assume it's in the 2700K range.

I bought some 100W[72W] halogen bulbs the other day. I just checked the packaging and on the back and in the box of "Lighting Facts" is says the Light Appearance is "warm" 3000K.
The bulbs are made by GE Hungary.