Ammo Discussion

[JLaw]

I love handguns of all makes and calibers, read about as many as I can. However I have not studied up on ammunition much at all. If it goes bang and makes a hole it must be good, right? Yeah, right.

I'm ready to order a bunch of ammo for my Makarov (9x18 caliber), which is what spurred this discussion. I'm not going to buy into the whole super-duper name brand $3.00 per shot self defense ammo thing, but I think that many brands of HP's are worth they're beans like Speer Gold Dot and Federal Hydra-shock.

I know HP's are a better defensive round than ball, because the HP will expand to a larger caliber (hopefully) then transfer all or much of it's energy to the target, and tear up a little more tissue in the process. Okay, I understand that.

Ball ammo however, from what I understand, will keep on trucking right through the chest cavity, making only a small permanant hole and not transfering as much energy into the target. Not to mention the liability of damaging what's behind the target/suspect.

With a small caliber handgun, such as the .380, 9x18 Mak, 9x19 Luger etc., is they're really a big advantage to HP ammo vs. ball ammo? I know that penetration is a little better with ball, which may be an advantage with .380 and 9x18 Mak. However...

If you shoot to center mass and do not destroy a vital, is the extra frontal surface area provided by the expanding HP round going to do you any good??? If a ball round penetrates the heart/lung, that'll still stop the threat, maybe a second or two later, but it'll stop it regardless. Maybe more importantly...what are the chances of making a center mass hit and completely MISSING any vital organs??? (I never took anatomy, sorry.)

Maybe we can get a little discussion going on this post to educate
people like myself who don't really want to pay $19.00 for 20 rounds of defensive ammo, even though it may very well be better than that $8.99 FMJ stuff.

JLaw

[HighVelocity]

Plenty of people are killed by plain ol' ball ammo every year. In a small round like .380 or 32, etc, I think penetration is going to be the biggest concern. It doesn't matter if a bullet expands to 50 cal if it doesn't go deep enough to hit anything.
In my Sig 380, which I only carry on occasion, I keep it loaded with the hottest hollow points I could find which are the 90gr Corbons. However, if fmj was all that was available I wouldn't feel under equipped if the need arose.
Shot placement, Shot placement, Shot placement.

[onerifle]

While I would never disparage anyone's choices for personal protection, and I agree that practice, practice, practice and shot placement are the most important part of a self defense equation. I never quite did understand the attitude of loading with ball except for 'mousegun' calibers. I would feel better prepared with a used, utterly reliable firearm in an accepted service caliber (9mm, .40S&W, .45ACP) loaded with a 'premium' hollowpoint, than I would with a $3000 racegun of any pedigree loaded with ball. Any gun I carry is merely a launching platform- what counts is what gets on target. We're lucky that the FBI protocols were developed; there has been a quantum leap in handgun ammo performance over the last ten years.

There's a reason PD's around the country use ammo that have passed objective performance tests. I load my Glock 23 and Kahr PM9 with Winchester Ranger, but (in no particular order) Speer's Gold Dot, Federal's Tactical and HST lines, and Remington's Golden Saber are all excellent choices.

Hornady seems to be the hot ticket for self-defense with the 9x18; the hard part is finding it...

Just my $0.02.


Good luck with your search...half the fun is choosing a carry load. :D

Shot placement, shot placement, shot placement...

[orc4hire]

[onerifle]

'Energy transfer' does not impress me. A couple pounds per second of momentum, or a degree or so of heat* isn't going to stop anyone...

Ball ammo is sometimes recommended for the smaller calibers because hollowpoints may not penetrate deep enough to reach a vital organ structure, and if the bullet doesn't do that it doesn't matter how big or fast it is.

+1

[KBCraig]

Interesting discussion.

On a .25 ACP or .32, I believe I'd go for ball, either LRN or FMJ. Doesn't .22 LR out-perform either, energy-wise?

I don't know about .380; it's probably at the either/or line for ball or HP. I believe 9x18 Mak is sufficient for HP performance. My wife's 1963 EG Makarov (bee-YOO-ti-ful!) is loaded with Hornady XTP.

Kevin

[Scott Murray]

I'm interested in orc4hire's points, stressing the importance of permanent crush cavity, and downplaying the importance of energy. I've heard them before. They may be accurate.

It sounds like you're an engineer. As such we appreciate the importance of energy as a parameter in a lot of calculations. I don't think anyone would expect a thermal increase of 1 degree celsius to incapacitate. But does the expended energy do anything else useful? Does the sonic shock wave destroy cell structure, turning living tissue into jello? Does it induce capillary bleeding leading to shock and fainting, or prevent nerves from performing their normal charge discharge function?

I've heard Evan and Sanow's books would suggest that energy is important. But I understand their methodology has been questioned. The images I've seen of various handgun rounds in ballistic gelatin indicate to me that the "temporary stretch cavity" is greater in higher energy rounds. But how does that relate to real physiological effects? I know from experience that deer are severely traumatized by a mere .30 cal, 150 gr rifle bullet going 3000 fps. But then I've read there's a threshold. That energy isn't important until you get above ~2400 fps, and then it is. Is this due to some exponential increase in the strength of the shock wave? Or is someone confused by the fact that a FMJ M-16 round begins to tumble when hitting a soft target at greater than 2500-2700 fps?

I'm not trying to argue a point, because I really don't know. I'm seeking information. I've heard (actually read on the internet) a lot of strong opinions, including those in the FBI report, but not seen a lot of obviously valid supporting data. Some of the pieces start out by stressing that Marshall and Sanow are screwed up because no one has enough good data, but then assert their own opinions as if they did. I believe I've heard that the French actually went out and shot several hundred goats to study these effects, but don't know what they found out.

I'm sure we're all partisan to some extent. If we like .45 ACP then energy isn't important. If we like .357 mag/sig then it is. And I understand that once you get above .38 then shot placement trumps all. But is there any good information on the importance of energy out there?


Scott

[HighVelocity]

What about head shots? I believe that a bullet that penetrates the skull is most likely going to end the fight regardless of wether it's a fmj or jhp.

[txinvestigator]

What about head shots? I believe that a bullet that penetrates the skull is most likely going to end the fight regardless of wether it's a fmj or jhp.

The head is a very small target and from my experience even people well trained have trouble, under severe stress, making the type of well aimed shot required for shooting the head.

Besides, even though the head may move about, the torso tends to keep relatively still. Thats even if the person is moving.

Here is some reading on this subject from the FBI

http://www.firearmstactical.com/pdf/fbi-hwfe.pdf

[Scott Murray]

Thanks, txinvestigator.

That FBI paper is a good read.

[orc4hire]

[txinvestigator]

That's why, with top quality ammunition, there is little difference in terminal performance between any of the service calibers.

Agreed 100%

[JLaw]

txinvestigator --

That's a very good read you supplied. So basically (K.I.S.S. method), penetration #1, expansion #2. I have learned a good bit tonight, thanks to all for your informative posts.

JLaw

[eagleeye]

Good article txinvesigator

I thought the part about the innocent bystander being hit by bullets passing through the BG was an intresting point.

The quote "It should be obvious that the relatively few shots that do hit a subject are not somehow more dangerous to bystanders than the shots that miss the subject entirely" makes the point again-Shot placement. Shot placement. Shot placement.

Thanks.

[Greybeard]

Quote: "I'm ready to order a bunch of ammo for my Makarov (9x18 caliber), "

KISS method for my Macs includes $6 to $7 per box Silver Bear or Brown Bear. Same JHP's for practice as for (daughter's) carry. Whether they expand or not, most critical criteria remains ...... shot placement.