Drinking While Carrying

[frankie_the_yankee]

F.T.Y. - I'm not really sure what point you're trying to make: (1) you're upset that cops can get drunk and carry their handguns and you can't or (2) you don't think that anyone (cops included) should be able to carry when they're intoxicated.

#2.

Again, this is a non-issue because by far the majority of CHL holders don't drink and drive in an intoxicated state, thus putting themselves in jeopardy of this situation happening. The ones that do deserve to be charged - just like a LE officer should also be for DWI.

Agreed. I just have an issue with the "no alcohol ever" people, who claim that even one drink is an impairment and, hence illegal and wrong. And I am simply pointing out a bit of hypocrasy in that these people seem to be more worked up over the fact that someone might carry on a CHL after having one drink, while saying and doing nothing about the fact that LEO's can drink themselves unconscious while carrying with no criminal penalty.

I agree that a CHL holder, off-duty LEO, or just a plain citizen carrying under the traveling doctrine, should be able to have something to drink and still carry IF it doesn't impair their ability to function. If you can safely drive a vehicle then you should be able to have access to a handgun to defend yourself.

And I would go on to state that it is OK under the law for CHL's and/or travellers to do exactly that - as it should be.

CHL instructors who teach/preach otherwise are peddling hogwash, IMO, when they should be providing accurate information.

And to those tempted to post announcements that: 1) they don't drink ever, or 2) they never drink while carrying, let me pre-emptively extend to you all a hearty "Congratulations".

[anygunanywhere]

And to those tempted to post announcements that: 1) they don't drink ever, or 2) they never drink while carrying, let me pre-emptively extend to you all a hearty "Congratulations".

Thanksh! (hic).

Anygun

[CHL/LEO]

After watching this particular thread keep growing I asked a CHL Instructor this week about this particular issue. He said that there is a Q&A section on the DPS website that address the question in a very ambiguous manner. Someone asked the question if it was OK to drink while carrying and the answer was something along the lines of "no, you can't be intoxicated while carrying". That wasn't the question. He has asked for clarification on this specific issue several times over the years when he was getting re-certified. He says the DPS troopers are intentionally vague on it and quote the party line.

Based upon my experience in dealing with government entities whenever you get an evasive answer that they will not expound upon (like it seems they are doing in regards to this one) it probably involves some legal basis related to liability. They've probably been told that if they tell someone it's OK to drink and carry a gun and then someone gets injured because of that person's actions, then the state might have some liability. Perhaps someone else has another take on it...

[GrillKing]

I just have an issue with the "no alcohol ever" people, who claim that even one drink is an impairment and, hence illegal and wrong.

Most of what I've seen isn't saying it's illegal and wrong. The way I interpret this and the way most of those you say are callling it illegal and wrong interpret this, in my view is:

There is no definitive legal definition of what constitutes intoxication as it relates to carrying a concealed handgun therefore, many, myself included, CHOOSE to not carry even after 1 drink. With one drink (or 2...), you probably would not be arrested as intoxicated, however nobody really knows where that line will be drawn in any specific case. Except that no alcohol absolutely = no impairment from alcohol. Others choose differently. More important to me than the possibility of arrest, which is I agree is unlikely with 1 drink, is the aftermath of a shooting where any alcohol is involved. Criminally and Civil liability wise, any alcohol = bad news IMHO.

By the way, with ANY alcohol ingested into the body, I believe there is impairment, maybe so imperceptable as to not be a problem, but the effect of alcohol is there to some degree. But so is caffeine, just ask a coffee drinker who misses their morning cup.

[frankie_the_yankee]

More important to me than the possibility of arrest, which is I agree is unlikely with 1 drink, is the aftermath of a shooting where any alcohol is involved. Criminally and Civil liability wise, any alcohol = bad news IMHO.

I agree that there could be some concern there. But I am of the opinion that a clean shoot is a clean shoot, and the "reasonableness" of one's actions have a reality of their own.

I do not for one moment think that I would ever shoot someone after having one drink that I wouldn't have shot had I had nothing to drink. Nor do I think that having one drink would cause me to do anything that would exacerbate a problem, nor change the nature of any effort on my part to avoid the problem.

So from where I sit, I think a responding officer, DA, and or grand jury would see the same thing unfold in the same way with one drink as they would without one drink.

And because I know that I am a good, peaceable, responsible, law-abiding guy, I'm confident that I would come out of the situation just fine.

If I thought otherwise, I would never take the responsibility of carrying a gun in the first place.

[frankie_the_yankee]

Based upon my experience in dealing with government entities whenever you get an evasive answer that they will not expound upon (like it seems they are doing in regards to this one) it probably involves some legal basis related to liability. They've probably been told that if they tell someone it's OK to drink and carry a gun and then someone gets injured because of that person's actions, then the state might have some liability. Perhaps someone else has another take on it...

Bingo!

[linh811]

alcohol just happens to be a legal drug..

there are many that would say their judgement is not impaired whatsover after smoking weed, doing a couple lines of coke, couple hits of heroin etc...

my "friend" has told me that he is much more affected and his judgement much more impaired by alcohol than any of the above mentioned drugs..

[frankie_the_yankee]

alcohol just happens to be a legal drug..

there are many that would say their judgement is not impaired whatsover after smoking weed, doing a couple lines of coke, couple hits of heroin etc...

my "friend" has told me that he is much more affected and his judgement much more impaired by alcohol than any of the above mentioned drugs..

Congratulations to your friend. I can't tell you how much I'm happy knowing that he is so sensitive to the depredations of "AL-co-hol. AY-GENT OF SAY-ton".

But tell us, does he immediately get rid of his carry gun when he accidently whacks his thumb with a hammer, thus releasing a flood of endorphins (chemicals strongly resembling opiates) into his bloodstream? I sure hope so. Because even though he might THINK his judgement is not affected, it probably is.

Or how about if/when he is affected by "runner's high"? After all, we wouldn't want him carrying while "high", (even on some natural substance) would we? Lord knows what he might do.

Then there's the time his girlfriend dumped him in favor of a drunken bum who happens to be a lot better looking. Did that episode, and the associated huge adrenalin dump, affect his judgement at all? Did he choose to continue carrying, or did he leave his gun at home until all those strong emotions passed?

How is his judgement affected when he picks up his mail and finds an envelope marked, "IRS - Official Business" in it? Does he immediately stop carrying? If not, why not?

Has your friend ever been carrying while walking into a Whataburger and ordering breakfast, and then being told that they had stopped serving breakfast two minutes ago, and that he would have to have lunch instead?

From the above, it seems the CHL law is just "shot through" with loopholes (pun intended). What do you propose we do about it?

[yerasimos]

alcohol just happens to be a legal drug..

there are many that would say their judgement is not impaired whatsover after smoking weed, doing a couple lines of coke, couple hits of heroin etc...

my "friend" has told me that he is much more affected and his judgement much more impaired by alcohol than any of the above mentioned drugs..

But tell us, does he immediately get rid of his carry gun when he accidently whacks his thumb with a hammer, thus releasing a flood of endorphins (chemicals strongly resembling opiates) into his bloodstream? I sure hope so. Because even though he might THINK his judgement is not affected, it probably is.

From the above, it seems the CHL law is just "shot through" with loopholes (pun intended). What do you propose we do about it?

linh811 never said that his "friend" carries a gun or has a CHL. Strictly speaking for myself here (I may be incorrect), I infer that this "friend" may not bother with a gun or CHL due to lack of self-discipline or interest, or inability to qualify for the CHL.

We have to recognize that the Penal Code, written by imperfect individuals, will probably always have little quirks like this no matter how many amendments are made by the legislature.

What to do about it?

If you decide to drink while carrying, responsibly enjoy your alcoholic beverage of choice, with deliberate moderation, while eating a meal or bar snacks to retard/minimize the physiological effects of consuming the beverage. In my opinion, it would be a good idea to stop consuming alcoholic beverages before you "feel" the effect of the alcohol. If that means you only get to enjoy 9 oz of a 12 oz bottle of beer or half a shot at a sitting, then you know your limit, and that is a good thing. Enjoy the taste/flavor/"bouquet" of the beverage with your meal/snacks, not the way it can make you "feel" if you drink enough of it. This way, you get to enjoy your beverage in a small quantity, yet if you have an official encounter you are less likely to be perceived as "intoxicated".

If you have decided to get yourself (insert adjective of choice here), stay at home (or equivalent) to do your thing, and wait until you are clear-headed before handling your guns again.

[frankie_the_yankee]

linh811 never said that his "friend" carries a gun or has a CHL. Strictly speaking for myself here (I may be incorrect), I infer that this "friend" may not bother with a gun or CHL due to lack of self-discipline or interest, or inability to qualify for the CHL.

Perhaps. Or his "friend" may be a rhetorical construct used to try to make what in my opinion is an idiotic point.

FYI, ethanol is a liquid and like all liquids, exhibits a characteristic vapor pressure, one that varies directly with temperature. This means that SOME ethanol diffuses into the air from any source whatsoever that is exposed to the air.

So if you walk or drive by a bar or anyplace where ethanol is exposed to the air, you will be breathing air that has a small amount of ethanol mixed with it. Some of this airborne ethanol will enter your bloodstream through the lungs.

Note that the above is certainly true whenever there is enough ethanol in the air that you can smell it.

It might be too small to measure, (with current technology) but it's there.

If you can smell alcohol on someone's breath, YOU HAVE ALCOHOL IN YOUR SYSTEM AS WELL!

So much for all the teetotalers out there.

I wonder if linh811's "friend" can detect the psychoactive effects of such small amounts of ethanol. If so, I would like linh811's "friend" to tell us just at what bac level those effects kick in.

Because if it's zero, then none of us should carry anywhere. (Who knows when you will encounter someone with alcohol on their breath? Worse yet, what if you are carrying, and are attacked by a drunken violent criminal? Since you will have alcohol in your system from simple proximity, how will the DA know that your actions were not guided by the hand of Satan?)

Now, if we consider the above to constitute a load of baloney, we can revert to the more rational regime that you alluded to in your post. One based on practical reality and the law.

It is unlawful to carry on a CHL while intoxicated. One drink does not make a person with a normal response to alcohol intoxicated, therefore it is legal for such a person to carry after having one drink. Those people who know themselves to be exceptions certainly should act accordingly, as you pointed out.

If you threaten or use deadly force in unreasonable circumstances, you will rightfully be in a whole lot of trouble with the law, no matter what your BAC is.

And I continue to believe that it is WRONG for LEO's to carry while intoxicated, even though it is not illegal in TX. It SHOULD BE illegal, IMO. Not because I can't do it. But because nobody SHOULD do it.

[linh811]

for some people 1 drink is the equivalent of 1 line of coke in terms of physical/emotional/psychological impairement....

if it's ok to have 1 drink I guess it should also be OK to have 1 line of coke too..

[frankie_the_yankee]

for some people 1 drink is the equivalent of 1 line of coke in terms of physical/emotional/psychological impairement....

Merely asserting something does not make it so. I have no idea as to what the relative impairment is, if any. And neither do you.

if it's ok to have 1 drink I guess it should also be OK to have 1 line of coke too..

If, if, if....... If frogs had wings they wouldn't bump their fannies on the ground so often, right?

According to the law, having a drink is legal. Having a line of coke is not.

[txinvestigator]

for some people 1 drink is the equivalent of 1 line of coke in terms of physical/emotional/psychological impairement....

if it's ok to have 1 drink I guess it should also be OK to have 1 line of coke too..

People who are taking the drug are hardly in a position to report on its effects on their judgment. From the perspective of a person who has dealt with both drunk and high people, I can tell you that people who make the claim above have NO idea of what they speak.

[govnor]

I'm a heavy drinker. That means that I drink at least five drinks at one sitting once a week or drink every day. In my situation, it means that I get off work and drink a six pack sometimes (tall boys). On the weekends I might drink a half of a bottle of Jack. Yeah, in one night.

I carry my gun on my hip locked and loaded at all times at the house. I've done this for years without incident. I don't get in the car and drive anywhere (usually). You never know, I might be out of smokes.

According to my CHL instructor, there is no set limit for drinking while carrying. That said, I'm assuming that you are not supposed to be carrying while over the legal limit. For me, that's probably about four beers in an hour or two. The smartest thing to do is to never carry if you're drinking. If you do, then you are taking a definite risk. Hopefully you won't be pulled over. If you are then hope you don't get Barney Fife. If you are an older dude driving a normal car and you have one glass of wine with dinner...you're safe. Personally I drive a white pickup truck that the police just ignore for the most part. I wonder if the camo seat covers help?

Once my CHL goes through, I will do what my other heavy drinking friends with CHL's do...don't carry your gun with you when you go to the bar. That means leave it at home. If I'm stopping by happy hour at the local Chili's for a few beers then I will probably have my gun in the truck. Oh well. If I get stopped then I will deal with the consequences. I still speak normally after four or five beers. I also drive real slow...

[NguyenVanDon]

I don't drink and carry, same as I don't drink and drive.