51% patio carry?

[race4beer]

I went to Vitty's in Lewisville last night, which as far as I knew was a food/bar type place. Entered the patio directly from the parking lot, sat down and listened to some music. After an hour or so I went inside for a nature call when I noticed 2 51% signs by the main entrance, inside the location. After heading to drop off at my truck and returning, I thought of this post. While I would guess my pocket concealment is working, I had that pain in my gut of "what if.."

I did post this establishment over at texas3006.com

[gringo pistolero]

The TABC database says their license is for a private club. Doesn't that still require membership for entry?

[srothstein]

I believe the laws on private clubs do not require membership for entry into the premises, just for purchase of the drinks. Many places charge two extra dollars for the first drink to cover a temporary guest membership to get around this law. One of my complaints about the way we regulate alcohol in Texas is that we still permit this type of game. Either make regular licenses legal or do away with guest and temporary memberships.

I support the local option on selling alcohol. But it should be given just three options, IMO. We should have dry counties, allow alcohol for off premise consumption, or allow alcohol for on premise consumption. I do not understand what the difference in selling beer, wine, or liquor is, nor the difference in the type of establishment that sells it.

[race4beer]

I believe the laws on private clubs do not require membership for entry into the premises, just for purchase of the drinks. Many places charge two extra dollars for the first drink to cover a temporary guest membership to get around this law. One of my complaints about the way we regulate alcohol in Texas is that we still permit this type of game. Either make regular licenses legal or do away with guest and temporary memberships.

I support the local option on selling alcohol. But it should be given just three options, IMO. We should have dry counties, allow alcohol for off premise consumption, or allow alcohol for on premise consumption. I do not understand what the difference in selling beer, wine, or liquor is, nor the difference in the type of establishment that sells it.

The server came up to me and I ordered 2 beers from the patio (one for me and one for my wife), paid $9 so I am guessing/hoping there was a "membership fee" attached otherwise it's expensive beer.

[Panda]

I agree with Steve. The temporary memberships show how asinine and pointless the private club license is in practice.

[dogflight]

Removed by author. Please disregard. My question was answered elsewhere.

[srothstein]

Sorry, but if you see my post in the other thread, you will see my logic and explanation. I no longer have access to the legal references I did when I was an active officer and instructor, so I don't have the citations any more. Hopefully the explanation is clear enough to help.

[Keith B]

Actually, the parking lot is part of the licensed premises and this is where quite a bit of the case law on weapons on licensed premises comes from. But, the non-chl would not be committing a crime because the law allows guns in cars. For non-51% locations, the law on licensed premises is still part of 46.02 and we know that allows car carry now. The non-chl is not affected by 46.035 since he cannot carry outside of the car anyway.

Could you cite some of that case law? I'm not seeing how the Penal Code definition of "premises", 46.035(f)(3), is in any way legally modified by the term "licensed premises" used by TABC for the regulation of alcohol-related businesses.

I was referred to this thread from another based on this thought: while TABC could license a bar in the middle of a parking lot and the 51% rule would apply in the bar, the parking lot itself would still be just that - a parking lot - and the 51% prohibition on CHL carry would not apply.

If my understanding of PC 46.035 is indeed wrong, I'll need to modify my instructional material to match, so would really appreciate any references.

Thank you.

See this post that srothstein just put up viewtopic.php?f=7&t=67400&start=30#p829100" onclick="window.open(this.href);return false;

[Pecos]

I personally agree with Keith. This patio is part of the bar they own & serve drinks. I can tell you one thing. You wouldnt see me on that patio with my gun!!!!
PS: and it would be no big deal for me.

[maverick2076]

This is one of my frustrations with the 51%. We frequent icehouses/roadhouses and such on occasion out on the bikes (motorcycles) and never order alcohol because it doesn't mix with two things I'm doing: Riding that powered two wheeler and carrying. I will stop in and grab food and the strongest drink I might order will be iced tea. I completely understand the reasons for the rule, but it is really a pain to secure a firearm on a motorcycle. I'm trying to find a better vest that actually has a GOOD gun pocket. Most are a cavernous area with a narrow opening or have an elastic band that is poorly positioned. At least that way I can place it in my saddlebag so that it is not "displayed" and only worry about keeping my bike in view.

I have a vest made by http://www.hillsideusa.com/ that has great concealment pockets that hold my CW9 very securely. Their vests are a little pricey if you compare them to Jafrum or Leatehrup, but they are American made and custom made to your measurements. As such, they are very affordable compared to other custom made American vest offerings. They are heavy leather and very well stitched. They are also pretty quick, as I got mine in less than 2 weeks. The only downside is that the thick leather makes it pretty warm in the summer!

[Pecos]

maverick2076 What does that have to do with drinking on the patio?????

[jester]

A wise old gringo once told me, "concealed is concealed."

[drjoker]

A wise old gringo once told me, "concealed is concealed."

That kinda thinking will get you arrested in the 21st century. LEO now have the tech to scan you from hundreds of feet away and see through your clothes, basically do an invasive search without a warrant. http://gizmodo.com/5923980/the-secret-g ... -about-you The scanners the fed use can be blocked by putting the item of interest inside 12 layers of those brown bags they sell computer mother boards in. However, the fed's scanners are more sophisticated. They are capable of seeing how much adrenaline your body is producing, if you have powder residue on your clothing, etc.

An elderly couple driving with a gun in their RV through Wash D.C. got arrested because scanners picked up their gun inside the RV.

The NYC police now have long distance scanners. Their scanners don't "see" through clothes like the ones the Fed uses but detect disturbances in electromagnetic flow or heat. I don't know of any defense against these scanners, but these scanners will only detect things within spitting distance (less than 4 to 25 yards, depending on the manufacturer as several manufacturers are vying for the NYC contract).http://www.nypost.com/p/news/local/nypd ... DFnMCZJ28N These are also less sophisticated than the fed's scanners.

[maverick2076]

maverick2076 What does that have to do with drinking on the patio?????

The poster I quoted was looking for a good concealment motorcycle vest. I was telling him about one.

[Lucky]

A wise old gringo once told me, "concealed is concealed."

That kinda thinking will get you arrested in the 21st century. LEO now have the tech to scan you from hundreds of feet away and see through your clothes, basically do an invasive search without a warrant. http://gizmodo.com/5923980/the-secret-g ... -about-you The scanners the fed use can be blocked by putting the item of interest inside 12 layers of those brown bags they sell computer mother boards in. However, the fed's scanners are more sophisticated. They are capable of seeing how much adrenaline your body is producing, if you have powder residue on your clothing, etc.

Is that what they're using in the airports now? It seems like they can't find anything as long as you don't stand still with your hands over your head. Or even if you do.