Texas LEO shoots family dog at wrong address

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EEllis
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Re: Texas LEO shoots family dog at wrong address

#121

Post by EEllis »

VMI77 wrote:
EEllis wrote: They wouldn't consider it trespassing when the UPS driver enters so you can't assume anyone else is trespassing. This is one of those times that reading the statutes will not give you the whole story.

Mind you you may very well be right in the fact that it might be dangerous. You can see just from this thread how misinformed many people are about the law so you may very well be met by someone with a gun, heck ever it would be worse at night, but that really doesn't matter legally speaking if there might be danger involved. Is a bit strange that people would be willing to stop someone at gunpoint but can't be bothered to post or secure a gate. Takes all kinds I guess.
More strawmen. Strawman #1: A UPS delivery is essentially by invitation. Strawman #2: the electric company has a lock on my gate, so they essentially have permission to enter. But if I lived in town, this is not the normal practice, so, if I needed to receive a delivery or the electric company needed to read the meter when no one was home, the gate would have to be left unlocked. I put a piece of metal so the latch can't be bumped and accidentally open the gate, but it isn't "locked." If you're not just demolishing strawmen, then I can only conclude you are one of these people who can't conceive of any legitimate reason for other people to conduct their lives any differently than you do.
You are just totally wrong by law. You have decided that you feel something should be a particular way and even with court decisions that say otherwise you still deny like repeating it makes it so. It doesn't. In Texas you must post or secure gates for entry to automatically considered criminal trespass.
At least one Texas court has held that unlatching an ordinary latch on a closed, but unlocked, gate to approach the front door of a house is not an illegal entry by police. See Nored v. State, 875 S.W.2d 392, 396-97 (Tex. App. Dallas 1994, pet. ref d).
Then later
In terms of the degree to which it signifies an intent to exclude the public, a remote control gate is somewhere between a locked gate or sign prohibiting entry and a gate closed with an ordinary latch, and is thus somewhat ambiguous. Although a remote control mechanism on a gate can support an inference that it is intended to prevent the gate from being opened otherwise and to thereby exclude the public, it can also reasonably support an inference that it is merely intended to hold the gate shut, like an ordinary gate latch, while also allowing it to be opened by remote control when convenient. Based on the latter inference, it would not have been an abuse of discretion for the trial court to conclude that the officers pushing the gate open to approach the front door was not an illegal entry.
True these are cases involving police, but then again how many cases of trespass do you think go to appeals, these only went because of suppression issues. The logic tho is directly applicable. The police didn't make illegal entry because it would of been something a regular citizen would of done.
Mr. Nieminski had the initial burden in this case to establish that he had a reasonable expectation of privacy that included an expectation that citizens would not enter the property through the unlocked gate to knock on his door for the ordinary purposes for which people knock on doors under similar circumstances.

that's right a 6' fence with dogs but unposted and unlocked does not establish an expectation that citizens will not enter the property for ordinary purposes. UPS is ordinary purposes but then so is contacting the owner.

That's right you have no legal basis for your beliefs but maybe if you try harder, act ruder, and insult more that will change.
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Keith B
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Re: Texas LEO shoots family dog at wrong address

#122

Post by Keith B »

OK folks. You need to drop the personal attacks. You are well aware of the forum rules on this. Stop now.
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lrpettit
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Re: Texas LEO shoots family dog at wrong address

#123

Post by lrpettit »

It also seems that most of the posts are assuming you have to go through the gate to get to the front door. Do the same rules apply to a backyard that's fenced like us city slickers have? Not talking police, I know they can go back there.
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Re: Texas LEO shoots family dog at wrong address

#124

Post by talltex »

EEllis wrote: You are just totally wrong by law. You have decided that you feel something should be a particular way and even with court decisions that say otherwise you still deny like repeating it makes it so. It doesn't. In Texas you must post or secure gates for entry to automatically considered criminal trespass.

At least one Texas court has held that unlatching an ordinary latch on a closed, but unlocked, gate to approach the front door of a house is not an illegal entry by police. See Nored v. State, 875 S.W.2d 392, 396-97 (Tex. App. Dallas 1994, pet. ref d).

True these are cases involving police, but then again how many cases of trespass do you think go to appeals, these only went because of suppression issues. The logic tho is directly applicable. The police didn't make illegal entry because it would of been something a regular citizen would of done.

Mr. Nieminski had the initial burden in this case to establish that he had a reasonable expectation of privacy that included an expectation that citizens would not enter the property through the unlocked gate to knock on his door for the ordinary purposes for which people knock on doors under similar circumstances.


that's right a 6' fence with dogs but unposted and unlocked does not establish an expectation that citizens will not enter the property for ordinary purposes. UPS is ordinary purposes but then so is contacting the owner.

That's right you have no legal basis for your beliefs but maybe if you try harder, act ruder, and insult more that will change.
Reminds me of one of the midday coffee regulars at the DQ who was sitting there when a couple of the early morning regulars came in and asked him where Ol' Joe was... he told'em: "After the rest of ya'll's early group left, he went off down to the pasture to argue with a fence post until time for the afternoon meeting." :roll:
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chuck j
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Re: Texas LEO shoots family dog at wrong address

#125

Post by chuck j »

.........................................yep . LOL

EEllis
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Re: Texas LEO shoots family dog at wrong address

#126

Post by EEllis »

lrpettit wrote:It also seems that most of the posts are assuming you have to go through the gate to get to the front door. Do the same rules apply to a backyard that's fenced like us city slickers have? Not talking police, I know they can go back there.
No lawyer, and I'm tired of the google, but I think it would depend on why they were going back there.

EEllis
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Re: Texas LEO shoots family dog at wrong address

#127

Post by EEllis »

talltex wrote: Reminds me of one of the midday coffee regulars at the DQ who was sitting there when a couple of the early morning regulars came in and asked him where Ol' Joe was... he told'em: "After the rest of ya'll's early group left, he went off down to the pasture to argue with a fence post until time for the afternoon meeting." :roll:
:smilelol5:

talltex
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Re: Texas LEO shoots family dog at wrong address

#128

Post by talltex »

mojo84 wrote:I just don't see how we can accept the double standard like we do whether it be "department policy" or not. Especially considering the cop was at the wrong location.

Inconsistency in the application of the law, double standards and certain people getting a pass on things that would get a mere citizen thrown in jail is what leads to a lot of the "us against them" attitudes so many complain about.
I read something interesting earlier today: Since 2010, there have been 228 dogs shot by police officers in Houston alone( I really didn't think the number would have been anywhere near that high). The Department said it had ruled EVERY ONE of the 228 OIS (officer involved shootings) as justified in accordance with departmental policies. That's impressive...not a even one of the officers made a mistake or were found to be at fault in a single instance out of 228 shootings. I also read this from a report issued by the US Dept. of Justice in 2012: The report" emphasized that serious dog bites in the line of duty are very rare, and no particular breed is especially dangerous" (despite so many of the officers statements that they thought it was a pit bull), "so officers have little reason to feel fear when encountering a canine in the performance of their duties." It concluded by saying: "When an officer shoots a dog that doesn't constitute a serious threat, the safety of his fellow officers and bystanders are compromised and put at risk, and the trust and respect of the community is significantly eroded." This discussion certainly proves that statement to be correct.
"I looked out under the sun and saw that the race is not always to the swift, nor the battle to the strong" Ecclesiastes 9:11

"The race may not always go to the swift or the battle to the strong, but that's the way the smart money bets" Damon Runyon

talltex
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Re: Texas LEO shoots family dog at wrong address

#129

Post by talltex »

EEllis wrote:
talltex wrote: Reminds me of one of the midday coffee regulars at the DQ who was sitting there when a couple of the early morning regulars came in and asked him where Ol' Joe was... he told'em: "After the rest of ya'll's early group left, he went off down to the pasture to argue with a fence post until time for the afternoon meeting." :roll:
:smilelol5:
I have to confess that my Dad said the same thing about me on more than one occasion ;-)
"I looked out under the sun and saw that the race is not always to the swift, nor the battle to the strong" Ecclesiastes 9:11

"The race may not always go to the swift or the battle to the strong, but that's the way the smart money bets" Damon Runyon
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mojo84
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Re: Texas LEO shoots family dog at wrong address

#130

Post by mojo84 »

FAMILY FURIOUS AFTER POLICE SHOOT GERMAN SHEPHERD IN FRONT YARD – PLUS, DOES SECURITY VID CONTRADICT COPS’ STORY?

http://www.theblaze.com/stories/2013/06 ... %20Buttons" onclick="window.open(this.href);return false;
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chuck j
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Re: Texas LEO shoots family dog at wrong address

#131

Post by chuck j »

Debate can become competitive in a hurry , ben there myself . You can lose prospective and quickly feel the need to win , 'defeat' would mean your incompetent or would lose face . In desperation you lash out and the bad starts happening , I'll say again , ben there myself . Mods or admin have to calm the situation , ben both and understand the process of keeping the line conversations going and trying to make members happy . I love to see members talk , debate , and even say it's not over but at the end wish each other a good evening .Way it ought to be .

chuck j
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Re: Texas LEO shoots family dog at wrong address

#132

Post by chuck j »

Andrew Jacksons sometimes savage temper, both illustrated in the following, in which some background is provided as it illustrates the society Jackson lived in:

In 1805 a friend of Jackson's deprecated the manner in which Captain Joseph Ervin had handled a bet with Jackson over a horse race. Ervin's son-in-law, Charles Dickinson became enraged and started quarreling with Jackson's friend which lead to Jackson becoming involved. Dickinson wrote to Jackson calling him a "coward and an equivicator". The affair continued, with more insults and misunderstandings, until Dickinson published a statement in the Nashville Review in May 1806, calling Jackson a "worthless scoundrel, ... a poltroon and a coward".

Jackson challenged Dickinson to a duel very much according to the customs of the time in the south. Dickinson, known as one of the best shots in Tennessee if not the best, had choice of weapons and chose pistols.

Dickinson fired the first shot, which broke two of Jackson's ribs and lodged two inches from his heart. Dickinson then had to stand at the mark as Jackson, clutching his chest, aimed slowly and shot him fatally.

Though acceptable by the code of the times, many people considered it a cold-blooded killing. I presume the rules of engagement were for each man to draw and fire at the same time, upon hearing the signal, but if one fired, there was no "second round" until the other man fired. The implication is that magnanimity would have required Jackson to fire into the air rather than taking a slow deliberate aim at 24 feet.

Jackson's wound never healed properly and abcesses formed around the bullet, causing pain and some debilitation for Jackson's remaining 39 years.
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Barbi Q
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Re: Texas LEO shoots family dog at wrong address

#133

Post by Barbi Q »

I bet he never rushed a shot again.
If anyone is raped, beaten or murdered on a college campus from this day forward
The senators who blocked SB 354 from being considered on 4/7/11 and
The members of the house calendar committee who haven't scheduled HB 750
Have the victims' blood on their hands.

chuck j
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Re: Texas LEO shoots family dog at wrong address

#134

Post by chuck j »

>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> Yep , actually he died with TWO balls in him , you might want to check on that , interesting .
Oh ,sorry, edit , two balls in Jackson .
Last edited by chuck j on Fri Jun 21, 2013 8:10 pm, edited 1 time in total.

CoffeeNut
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Re: Texas LEO shoots family dog at wrong address

#135

Post by CoffeeNut »

At the very least the vet bills should be paid by the city. Mistakes happen and this was a pretty serious one that may require some punishment for the officer but it's hard to say since I wasn't on the scene. I grew up out of state and our city was having an alleged pit bull problem and there were dog shootings almost every time an officer came on scene where there was a barking dog. My grandfather who worked for the police department at the time said that there was very little tolerance for a "loose dog" that "seemed threatening" and if the owner was not able or unwilling to get it under control then they'd put it down on the spot.

As it was explained to me a dog is a distraction at the very least and a threat at the most that can prevent the officer from doing his/her job and actually put them in danger.

Again since they executed the warrant on the wrong house the police department should at least pony up for the vet bills.
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