Texas LEO shoots family dog at wrong address

[Cedar Park Dad]

Again,
1. why aren't the police using pepper spray/mace on dogs instead of throwing lead in populated areas?
2. why are they going to back yard in the first place? Its at best a minor warrant.

[EEllis]

Again,
1. why aren't the police using pepper spray/mace on dogs instead of throwing lead in populated areas?
2. why are they going to back yard in the first place? Its at best a minor warrant.

Can't answer the first but will say that is a dept policy issue and shouldn't be held against the individual officer as to the second I assume that is what this officer does. He gets a list and starts working. The more time and the longer it's on his list the more time he puts in. If no one was home I have no doubt he would of been on the road looking for the next name.

[jimlongley]

Just for added safety (for the dog and people) the gate should have been locked and a sign posted.

I worked for a telephone company for fifteen years and was bitten twice. The first time a woman came to the front door telling me the dog wouldn’t bite me after it already had. No warning signs were posted.

In hindsight, I should have reported it and sued the owners of both dogs.

Utilities meter reader folks, postmen, package deliver folks, utility workers, and many others have contact on privet property with dogs in total more often then LEO's I would guess.. Yet, they seem to be able to walk to a front door without the need to shoot a dog.. and do so thousands of times a day, every day, all year long.

There are probably hundreds if not thousands of “meter reader folks, postmen, package deliver folks, utility workers, and many others” bitten every year and not reported because they fear retaliation by their employer.

I passed by that house a couple of weeks later and noticed a “beware of dog” sign on the front gate.

I did report the folks whose dogs bit me over the years, and at least one was taken and destroyed under NY State's "Bad Dog" law. That particular dog had bitten several people and was well beyond its three strike under the law, and yet the owners still threatened me and the phone company with a lawsuit. I assume the company made some sort of settlement with them because they suddenly stopped communicating with my lawyer and I never heard another word.

NY Telephone had specific rules against employees suing, just a whiff of a suit would lead to counseling and threats of termination and supporting documentation in the company's hands would not be available for such a suit if you did decide to go ahead with a suit as a newly minted non-Bell System employee.

The only time I failed to report a dog bite was when I was having a particularly bad run of bad luck and was placed on warning for having excessive accidents. In a very short period I had had two vehicle wrecks (neither my fault and both unavoidable according to police reports), had fallen off a pole, and had fallen through a ramp into a basement.

To those questioning the hit ratio on the dog - I would offer that drawing from a level 2/3 retention holster and firing at a moving/advancing target is harder than most people would realize.

Actually my question, although it indeed included hit ratio, had more to do with why the officer chose to stop shooting at that time. I wonder if his tunnel vision suddenly opened up and he realized that there were potential shoot through victims, did the dogs turn tail and retreat, did they kowtow to him? Why did he stop?

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As an aside, although bitten a lot during my career, I never lost my love for dogs nor have I ever actually been afraid of one unless it was actually chewing on me. I got sent to a notorious house in my territory. Two Great Danes chained in such a way as to make it impossible to approach the front door. I offered them my usual dog treats, which I always carried a box of in my truck and one or two in my pockets, and moved to the door while they were busy, and then kept the dogs at bay simply by facing them and not allowing them to approach. Boy was the homeowner surprised when I rang the doorbell with the dogs standing placidly 15 feet away.

I have also run the length of a deck with two German Shepherds in hot pursuit and cleared the railing at the end and landed on top of my truck. I was glad I left my driver's side window open or I would have been trapped up there until the owner came home.

2. why are they going to back yard in the first place? Its at best a minor warrant.

I wondered that myself. Is it possible that he heard sounds indicating habitation coming from the child playing with the dogs in the yard?

[mojo84]

It's interesting, my lab is on an electronic collar that keeps her within a certain distance of the house. She spend the majority of her time on the front our back porch. The FedEx driver drives up the driveway and she runs out to greet him. He tosses her a treat and gives her a couple quick pats on the head, puts the package on the front porch and pats her again as he heads back to the truck.

With the UPS driver, it's a totally different story. Starting with the first time he encountered her, he acts as if he is facing satan himself. He panics and gets all defensive yelling and kicking at her. Needless to say, she reacts accordingly in response and let's just say, they don't get along. He has pepper sprayed and kicked her at least one time each that I'm aware of.

He now understands in no uncertain terms he is to never threaten, spray or touch her again even if it means he has to leave the packages on my driveway outside her reach or leave the packages at the UPS station for me to pick up. At this point, he has been duly warned and it is up to him to do the right thing. By the way, he is the only person with whom she has a problem. We have people come to our house all the time as we have quite a few neighborhood friends and friends of my 17 and 11 year old that come and she always greets them happily.

I suspect, if he had been carrying a gun as cops do, he would have shot her long ago. By the way, he doesn't like me much nowadays either and really didn't appreciate it when I let him know she is apparently a good judge of character as she loves the FedEx guy.

[Cedar Park Dad]

Again,
1. why aren't the police using pepper spray/mace on dogs instead of throwing lead in populated areas?
2. why are they going to back yard in the first place? Its at best a minor warrant.

Can't answer the first but will say that is a dept policy issue and shouldn't be held against the individual officer as to the second I assume that is what this officer does. He gets a list and starts working. The more time and the longer it's on his list the more time he puts in. If no one was home I have no doubt he would of been on the road looking for the next name.

Those are policy issues that should be fixed.

[gigag04]

To those questioning the hit ratio on the dog - I would offer that drawing from a level 2/3 retention holster and firing at a moving/advancing target is harder than most people would realize.

Actually my question, although it indeed included hit ratio, had more to do with why the officer chose to stop shooting at that time. I wonder if his tunnel vision suddenly opened up and he realized that there were potential shoot through victims, did the dogs turn tail and retreat, did they kowtow to him? Why did he stop?

That's possible - I know the pit I shot, I hit it with the first shot and was preparing a second, but he IMMEDIATELY broke off his aggressive charge once the first round struck behind the base of the neck/top of the back. He ran in a bout a 50ft half circle arc back to his house where he rolled over, groaned, and died. In my experience of shooting one, and observing two others shot, once the first round hits it, the dog usually changes its mind. That is limited only what I've seen, and I cannot really say what happened in the scenario in question.

[SewTexas]

but is the warrant issued for a person at an address, or just for a person? in which case, why put an address on a warrant? Basically what I'm saying is, the judge said you have permission to go to X address and get Mr Simpson, and these guys went to the computer, got Y address in a totally different town, and shot the Simmons' dog....if I were the judge, I'd be irritated.

[texanjoker]

What is interesting about this is perhaps who was with this particular officer.

Found him easily on a search - the guy is a former Marine, and assigned to SWAT & US Marshal duty. No slouch, and likely quite familiar with duties as a professional shooter. So the questions that are begged in my mind are:

1) Who was responsible for locating the address where the warrant was supposed to be served?
2) Who was responsible for driving there?
3) Was either 1 or 2 this particular officer's role?

It seems that if this officer was purely defending himself from a dog of unknown aggression running right at him while serving some random warrant vs he was responsible for knowing where the warrant was to be served are two entirely different issues.

Doesn't seem that the officer would be guilty of anything illegal if he wasn't running the show. Until all the facts come out it's tough to tell. I feel bad for the dog, and the officer. The family was probably pretty rattled too.

ZA

The investigator assigned has a list of arrest warrants to serve. Arrest warrants are NOT search warrants, and some of the comments in this thread are confusing the two. This was a simple traffic warrant for somebody that failed to show or pay. The warrant is going to have the suspects info on it, and the address listed on the citation. It will not describe a target location like a search warrant. Additionally the officer is not going to have the actual signed piece of paper with him as there is no need.

To find these people you do database checks to locate possible addresses. Some of those data bases do provide incorrect addresses and the only way you will know for sure is by knocking on doors as that is how you track people down. Many people do use incorrect or old addresses, or somewhere it gets switched. I know the previous owner of my home (been here 6 years) has started using my address over the past couple years and some warrant round up post cards have come in the mail. I expect a door knocking one of these days when they come looking for him.

For whatever reason dogs DO NOT like uniforms. I have responded to countless dog bite calls with people saying their dog would never bite anybody. I also know first hand from working police k9's that a german shepherd can cause serious bodily injury. Right or wrong this officer faced two that were allegedly charging him and he choose to protect himself in a manner that the news said was policy. As such they are not going to disarm him "like a criminal" as one post asked. There will be an internal investigation to make sure he was following policy and go from there.

[Cedar Park Dad]

Again, change the policy or sued to get it changed.

[VMI77]

I feel that what those with an LE background see this as a reasonable, and understandable situation because we have been there and done it. Through no fault of our own, and in the routine execution of our duties, we have been sent to wrong houses.

And therein is why police are slowly losing the respect and earning the contempt of the citizenry. Serve and protect increasingly applies to law enforcement and not the public. Officer safety seems to have priority over public safety. What you're essentially saying is that because you could make the same mistake you want to be part of a protected class that doesn't have to face the same consequences for the same actions as ordinary citizens do. It's ok for a letter carrier to get bitten by a dog, but police officers are so grand or so delicate shooting people's dogs is acceptable? You don't want to have to face the consequences of your mistakes. Hey, we all want that, no one wants to suffer the consequences of their mistakes and wrongdoing, but when we don't, the world is a worse place for it.

It IS this officer's fault. HE went to the house, not the person who sent him there. The "just following orders" excuse doesn't wash. HE didn't check the address or question where HE was sent. HE didn't ask himself why the yard was gated. It doesn't take a genius to stop and think --maybe there's a dog in there. And after seeing an enclosed yard, instead of calling first to ask the homeowner to secure any animals, HE just went through the gate and shot their dog. HE didn't attempt to read the dog or accept ANY risk, as anyone else would have had to do, and just shot it. He was serving paper on an unregistered vehicle, not approaching a drug house or apprehending a terrorist. If LE finds this conduct acceptable and 90% of the citizens don't, how do you think that's going to turn out for LE? When LE does things the community doesn't accept, they're not serving the community, they're RULING it.

[texanjoker]

To those questioning the hit ratio on the dog - I would offer that drawing from a level 2/3 retention holster and firing at a moving/advancing target is harder than most people would realize.

Actually my question, although it indeed included hit ratio, had more to do with why the officer chose to stop shooting at that time. I wonder if his tunnel vision suddenly opened up and he realized that there were potential shoot through victims, did the dogs turn tail and retreat, did they kowtow to him? Why did he stop?

That's possible - I know the pit I shot, I hit it with the first shot and was preparing a second, but he IMMEDIATELY broke off his aggressive charge once the first round struck behind the base of the neck/top of the back. He ran in a bout a 50ft half circle arc back to his house where he rolled over, groaned, and died. In my experience of shooting one, and observing two others shot, once the first round hits it, the dog usually changes its mind. That is limited only what I've seen, and I cannot really say what happened in the scenario in question.

He probably fired until the threat was gone. I shot a 98 lb german shepherd mix many years ago. One shot when it was attacking me, dog dropped, got back up and ran away. There was no need to keep firing. The shot hit pretty much the same place as yours. The dog was found and taken to a vet, and fully recovered. Fortunately in my case there were 2 witnesses that saw the whole thing and said I didn't have a choice . I knew I didn't, but it was nice to have two different witnesses that were unrelated both back what happened. Nobody wants to shoot a dog. I was very glad the dog fully recovered.

[SewTexas]

TJ,

it's not that "dogs do not like uniforms" it's that 1) dogs like people and want to play or 2) dogs feel the need to protect their humans. they will pick up ques from the incoming stranger and react accordingly. My corgies will immediately determine if a stranger likes dogs and either bark or bring their ball, and bark and wiggle their butt, but there will be barking and there will be running and yes, they can bark around their ball, it's very weird.

[VMI77]

To find these people you do database checks to locate possible addresses. Some of those data bases do provide incorrect addresses and the only way you will know for sure is by knocking on doors as that is how you track people down. Many people do use incorrect or old addresses, or somewhere it gets switched. I know the previous owner of my home (been here 6 years) has started using my address over the past couple years and some warrant round up post cards have come in the mail. I expect a door knocking one of these days when they come looking for him.

Your rationalizations are amazing. What you say right here makes the conduct LESS excusable, yet you seem to think it's some kind of justification or excuse. You're saying you KNOW the address has a good chance of being incorrect, yet you feel no obligation to exercise any additional caution or restraint. Out here in the world of citizens that would be considered negligence. It also demonstrates a complete lack of regard for the citizens you're supposedly protecting and little respect for private property. In any other line of work that required someone to find the right person at the correct address there is no burden forced on whomever may now be residing where the person being sought is no longer living, no matter how much easier it may make the job of those looking.

[mojo84]

What is interesting about this is perhaps who was with this particular officer.

Found him easily on a search - the guy is a former Marine, and assigned to SWAT & US Marshal duty. No slouch, and likely quite familiar with duties as a professional shooter. So the questions that are begged in my mind are:

1) Who was responsible for locating the address where the warrant was supposed to be served?
2) Who was responsible for driving there?
3) Was either 1 or 2 this particular officer's role?

It seems that if this officer was purely defending himself from a dog of unknown aggression running right at him while serving some random warrant vs he was responsible for knowing where the warrant was to be served are two entirely different issues.

Doesn't seem that the officer would be guilty of anything illegal if he wasn't running the show. Until all the facts come out it's tough to tell. I feel bad for the dog, and the officer. The family was probably pretty rattled too.

ZA

The investigator assigned has a list of arrest warrants to serve. Arrest warrants are NOT search warrants, and some of the comments in this thread are confusing the two. This was a simple traffic warrant for somebody that failed to show or pay. The warrant is going to have the suspects info on it, and the address listed on the citation. It will not describe a target location like a search warrant. Additionally the officer is not going to have the actual signed piece of paper with him as there is no need.

To find these people you do database checks to locate possible addresses. Some of those data bases do provide incorrect addresses and the only way you will know for sure is by knocking on doors as that is how you track people down. Many people do use incorrect or old addresses, or somewhere it gets switched. I know the previous owner of my home (been here 6 years) has started using my address over the past couple years and some warrant round up post cards have come in the mail. I expect a door knocking one of these days when they come looking for him.

For whatever reason dogs DO NOT like uniforms. I have responded to countless dog bite calls with people saying their dog would never bite anybody. I also know first hand from working police k9's that a german shepherd can cause serious bodily injury. Right or wrong this officer faced two that were allegedly charging him and he choose to protect himself in a manner that the news said was policy. As such they are not going to disarm him "like a criminal" as one post asked. There will be an internal investigation to make sure he was following policy and go from there.

My comment about disarming him "like a criminal" was directly related to how the officers treated the guy that shot the aggressive dog on his own property and then called report it was treated. Many on here defended how the officers treated him including shooting the man and killing him. The argument was that he it was a "criminal investigation".

I just don't see how we can accept the double standard like we do whether it be "department policy" or not. Especially considering the cop was at the wrong location.

Inconsistency in the application of the law, double standards and certain people getting a pass on things that would get a mere citizen thrown in jail is what leads to a lot of the "us against them" attitudes so many complain about.

[texanjoker]

To find these people you do database checks to locate possible addresses. Some of those data bases do provide incorrect addresses and the only way you will know for sure is by knocking on doors as that is how you track people down. Many people do use incorrect or old addresses, or somewhere it gets switched. I know the previous owner of my home (been here 6 years) has started using my address over the past couple years and some warrant round up post cards have come in the mail. I expect a door knocking one of these days when they come looking for him.

Your rationalizations are amazing. What you say right here makes the conduct LESS excusable, yet you seem to think it's some kind of justification or excuse. You're saying you KNOW the address has a good chance of being incorrect, yet you feel no obligation to exercise any additional caution or restraint. Out here in the world of citizens that would be considered negligence. It also demonstrates a complete lack of regard for the citizens you're supposedly protecting and little respect for private property. In any other line of work that required someone to find the right person at the correct address there is no burden forced on whomever may now be residing where the person being sought is no longer living, no matter how much easier it may make the job of those looking.

Wow you get all that from my simple post? Once again you are implying I said something that I didn't. I am not making any excuses or justifying anything. I replied to a post how one goes about finding somebody for a warrant in very general terms. I did say the addresses could be wrong. The only way to know is go knock on the door. That is how things are done in the real world. I didn't say anything about not exercising caution or restraint. Then you rant about a complete lack of regard for the citizens and private property, blah blah. Give me a break. Those are your words and not mine. Quit always trying to put something into my post that isn't there as it gets tiresome.