Fort Worth police shoot elderly man

[Charles L. Cotton]

There's far to little information available for me to offer any opinions about this specific event.

As Gigag04 noted, officers often approach alarm calls (and other for that matter) "dark" so they do not scare the bad guys away. However, approaching in stealth mode not only means the bad guys don't know you're coming, it also means the good guys don't either. The decision on how to approach is the officer's to make, but in my view, he/she should shoulder the greater risk that he could be misidentified as the bad guy by others. It's one thing to shoot a man pointing a gun at someone they know is a LEO; it's quite another to shoot someone doing so not knowing the person was a LEO.

I hope the officers identified themselves and told him to drop the gun before firing, but again, we have no information. I suspect that both officers had their flashlights in the homeowner's face, so he would be blinded and couldn't see that officers were approaching as opposed to a burglar telling him to drop his weapon. Sometimes the best option in such situations is for the LEO to back off, take available cover and get the facts sorted out. I bet two Fort Worth officers wish they had done just that.

The investigation needs to be done by an agency other than the Fort Worth PD. Otherwise, any many will believe the outcome is questionable. What an absolute tragedy for all involved.

Chas.

[SSGMWP]

I agree with Mr Cotton, more facts are needed and investigation should come from another agency. Speculation only adds fuel to the fire.

[jayinsat]

My take away from this story so far: I am not a LEO. I will not go investigating my neighbors burglar alarm. I will report and observe as a good citizen.

[E.Marquez]

My take away from this story so far: I am not a LEO. I will not go investigating my neighbors burglar alarm. I will report and observe as a good citizen.

If as the story has been reported holds true.. The victim here was doing just as you suggested.. Not "going and investigating his neighbors burglar alarm" But in his own garage perhaps protecting his own life and property.

Should I hear my neighbors burglar alarm go off.. I will certainly lend hand in helping my neighbor.... Hiding out and letting others be taken advantage of is not in my nature,

But I don't live in one of them Big cities like some of you do...perhaps that is the way it's done there.. In rural Texas (and OR, AK, SC, NC, CA where I have also lived) we tend to be neighborly assisting, helping, watching out for each other as best we can.

Thats not a derogatory comment on those that choose to not,, just not how I was raised, nor how my Family and I see things in our chosen environment.

[VMI77]

Wandering around on your property with a visible weapon in the dead of night is certainly not advisable.

Seriously? On MY PROPERTY? Then we may as well all be disarmed if the police can come on our property and kill us just because we have a gun ---which btw, is not illegal. On occasion I wander around my property in the dead of night with an AR15 in hand --I don't think that gives the police the right to shoot me. Also, the accounts say he was standing in his garage, not wandering around. Here's what we know for sure, as most of the comments following the article reflect: if the situation was reversed, and this man, on his OWN PROPERTY, had mistakenly shot a police officer wandering around in the dark with a gun in his hand because he felt "threatened," he'd be in jail right now, he'd be charged with murder, and he'd go to prison. It wouldn't matter that he felt threatened, that it was dark, that he didn't realize they were police, that it wasn't intentional, or that he was on his OWN PROPERTY.

I look at this like vehicles taking the right of way. It may be your right, but a lot of people get killed by forcing that right of way.

At this point we don't know all of the detials. A case of mistaken address, etc can all lead up to you being dead. The shooter may be in the wrong, but you are in the ground.

As a practical matter I don't disagree. I just don't think it's a good idea to take "officer safety" to the point where police are shooting elderly home owners on their own property simply because they're armed. When we automatically dismiss a shooting like this as merely "unfortunate" because the citizen was armed, we're helping develop the notion that it is acceptable for the police to shoot anyone who is armed. That may not turn out to be the case here, but that is the concept I'm responding to. I'm also not advocating punishment for the officers, just that in some circumstances citizens get the right to "citizen safety," and are not punished anymore severely than officers under the same set of circumstances.

[talltex]

Wandering around on your property with a visible weapon in the dead of night is certainly not advisable.

Seriously? On MY PROPERTY? Then we may as well all be disarmed if the police can come on our property and kill us just because we have a gun ---which btw, is not illegal. On occasion I wander around my property in the dead of night with an AR15 in hand --I don't think that gives the police the right to shoot me. Also, the accounts say he was standing in his garage, not wandering around. Here's what we know for sure, as most of the comments following the article reflect: if the situation was reversed, and this man, on his OWN PROPERTY, had mistakenly shot a police officer wandering around in the dark with a gun in his hand because he felt "threatened," he'd be in jail right now, he'd be charged with murder, and he'd go to prison. It wouldn't matter that he felt threatened, that it was dark, that he didn't realize they were police, that it wasn't intentional, or that he was on his OWN PROPERTY.

I look at this like vehicles taking the right of way. It may be your right, but a lot of people get killed by forcing that right of way.

At this point we don't know all of the detials. A case of mistaken address, etc can all lead up to you being dead. The shooter may be in the wrong, but you are in the ground.

I'm sorry...but this is not a "tragic incident"...the man, who is now dead, did nothing wrong. The officers went to the WRONG ADDRESS and shot him when he opened his garage door with a gun in his hand. When he stepped out into his garage, he had absolutely no reason to anticipate that two armed police officers were on HIS property looking for a burglar. He lost his life because the officers made a series of mistakes...not because of anything he did wrong. This type of error...going to the wrong place and shooting an innocent citizen...has been occurring far to frequently in the last few years to simply label them an "unfortunate accident". As VMI77 said, if the situation was reversed the homeowner would be in jail...(IF he was very lucky). I understand Keith's point that a case of mistaken address, etc., can all lead up to you being dead and that you can be right and still be in the ground...but that doesn't excuse those errors or make them acceptable. As a private citizen, I am held liable for my mistakes, that cause loss, injury or damage to anyone else, and the officers/department should be also.

[puma guy]

Wandering around on your property with a visible weapon in the dead of night is certainly not advisable.

Seriously? On MY PROPERTY? Then we may as well all be disarmed if the police can come on our property and kill us just because we have a gun ---which btw, is not illegal. On occasion I wander around my property in the dead of night with an AR15 in hand --I don't think that gives the police the right to shoot me. Also, the accounts say he was standing in his garage, not wandering around. Here's what we know for sure, as most of the comments following the article reflect: if the situation was reversed, and this man, on his OWN PROPERTY, had mistakenly shot a police officer wandering around in the dark with a gun in his hand because he felt "threatened," he'd be in jail right now, he'd be charged with murder, and he'd go to prison. It wouldn't matter that he felt threatened, that it was dark, that he didn't realize they were police, that it wasn't intentional, or that he was on his OWN PROPERTY.

I made my comment in the context of a situation such as this one. Alarm going off, police on high alert. We don't know if he was followed, whether there was lighting,whether or not the officers told him drop his weapon, etc. There is not enough information to draw any conclusion, though some here are stating as facts, things I saw nowhere in the article nor the TV video.

[bizarrenormality]

Tragic for all involved

It sounds like it worked out great for the burglar.

[The_Busy_Mom]

From reports, there wasn't actually a burglar. The neighbor tripped the alarm by mistake.

Not getting in on this one - it is too early to tell what happened, and speculation only adds tension. As a citizen of Fort Worth, though not this particular neighborhood, I hope that an independent investigation is done.

TBM

[DEB]

My take away from this story so far: I am not a LEO. I will not go investigating my neighbors burglar alarm. I will report and observe as a good citizen.

If as the story has been reported holds true.. The victim here was doing just as you suggested.. Not "going and investigating his neighbors burglar alarm" But in his own garage perhaps protecting his own life and property.

Should I hear my neighbors burglar alarm go off.. I will certainly lend hand in helping my neighbor.... Hiding out and letting others be taken advantage of is not in my nature,

But I don't live in one of them Big cities like some of you do...perhaps that is the way it's done there.. In rural Texas (and OR, AK, SC, NC, CA where I have also lived) we tend to be neighborly assisting, helping, watching out for each other as best we can.

Thats not a derogatory comment on those that choose to not,, just not how I was raised, nor how my Family and I see things in our chosen environment.

Exactly and I do fully agree. I also live in a partially rural area and I will not allow my neighbor to be victimized and I am sure he would not allow the same to happen to me. We don't know what all happened in the post, but it sure is happening more frequently or perhaps because of the internet I see it that way. Mr. Cotton has it right, separate inquiry and etc. Law Enforcement also needs to be punished when these events occur, if it is the L.E.s fault. My home was burglarized, I called L.E. and when they arrived, I answered my door with my rifle in hand. He glanced at it, asked to enter and made his report. Nothing was pointed my way by this L.E. and I survived the encounter. Of course this happened over 30 years ago and I assume he knew I was not the individual he was looking for. AAARGGH every time I read things like this occurring, it lowers my expectations for L.E. support if needed. I am not blasting Police at large, I know they are doing a superhuman job, but they need to be held accountable if need be.

[K.Mooneyham]

As I have stated before, I am not and have never been an LEO. However, I do question the wisdom of whoever sent two inexperienced officers of the law into a situation where violence was distinctly possible. And I know that some of you will tell me that any police work can turn violent at any moment and I acknowledge that possibility; however, it seems to me that a burglary, where the suspect could easily be armed, would be a situation where that potential was a bit higher ALREADY. Thus, it would have seemed IMHO, that at least ONE more experienced officer should have been dispatched to that call ALONG WITH a less experienced officer, so the less experienced officer could be backup and GAIN experience. As johncanfield alluded to, there is such a concept as the "accident chain"; break any link and the chain is gone, the accident will not occur. I know LEOs get a LOT of training to deal with all sorts of situations, but nothing beats good, old-fashioned experience to temper that training, and perhaps recognize some of those links in an accident chain BEFORE the accident takes place.

[C-dub]

There are too many unknowns at this point, but there is one thing I'm curious about. How many 70+ year old burglars are there?

[sugar land dave]

Let's see. You are standing in your own garage. Someone is coming at you blinding you with flashlights. Being 72, you don't hear as well as you used to, so you hear yelling but cannot make out what is being said. After that you are dead; your wife is a widow, and statistically, her life expectancy just went down with your death.

The word tragedy almost seems too tame for this one. There is no way the city, police, or anyone can ever make this right or prevent the chain of events that this loss of innocent life will bring about. Much sadness for all, including me for having read this story.

[Rex B]

I'm sorry...but this is not a "tragic incident"...the man, who is now dead, did nothing wrong. The officers went to the WRONG ADDRESS and shot him when he opened his garage door with a gun in his hand. When he stepped out into his garage, he had absolutely no reason to anticipate that two armed police officers were on HIS property looking for a burglar. He lost his life because the officers made a series of mistakes...not because of anything he did wrong. This type of error...going to the wrong place and shooting an innocent citizen...has been occurring far to frequently in the last few years to simply label them an "unfortunate accident". As VMI77 said, if the situation was reversed the homeowner would be in jail...(IF he was very lucky). I understand Keith's point that a case of mistaken address, etc., can all lead up to you being dead and that you can be right and still be in the ground...but that doesn't excuse those errors or make them acceptable. As a private citizen, I am held liable for my mistakes, that cause loss, injury or damage to anyone else, and the officers/department should be also.

[VMI77]

My take away from this story so far: I am not a LEO. I will not go investigating my neighbors burglar alarm. I will report and observe as a good citizen.

If as the story has been reported holds true.. The victim here was doing just as you suggested.. Not "going and investigating his neighbors burglar alarm" But in his own garage perhaps protecting his own life and property.

Should I hear my neighbors burglar alarm go off.. I will certainly lend hand in helping my neighbor.... Hiding out and letting others be taken advantage of is not in my nature,

But I don't live in one of them Big cities like some of you do...perhaps that is the way it's done there.. In rural Texas (and OR, AK, SC, NC, CA where I have also lived) we tend to be neighborly assisting, helping, watching out for each other as best we can.

Thats not a derogatory comment on those that choose to not,, just not how I was raised, nor how my Family and I see things in our chosen environment.

Exactly and I do fully agree. I also live in a partially rural area and I will not allow my neighbor to be victimized and I am sure he would not allow the same to happen to me. We don't know what all happened in the post, but it sure is happening more frequently or perhaps because of the internet I see it that way. Mr. Cotton has it right, separate inquiry and etc. Law Enforcement also needs to be punished when these events occur, if it is the L.E.s fault. My home was burglarized, I called L.E. and when they arrived, I answered my door with my rifle in hand. He glanced at it, asked to enter and made his report. Nothing was pointed my way by this L.E. and I survived the encounter. Of course this happened over 30 years ago and I assume he knew I was not the individual he was looking for. AAARGGH every time I read things like this occurring, it lowers my expectations for L.E. support if needed. I am not blasting Police at large, I know they are doing a superhuman job, but they need to be held accountable if need be.

And therein lies the difference. Militarization of the police has and will continue to produce more results just like this one. Just look at how the police commanded people in Boston, yelling at them and treating them like they were in occupied territory. In LA they unloaded on the vehicle of two innocent women without even knowing who was in the vehicle. The bigger and more bureaucratic the department the worse the attitude. I think the undue emphasis on "officer safety" over "public safety" is also a contributing cause. I used to walk around my neighborhood with a rifle or shotgun when I was in high school, on my way to an area where we went shooting. I never had an officer draw down on me or treat me with the kind of contempt on display in Boston. Back then a contact went something more like, "hey, is that an 1100.....can I take a look at it? Nice looking gun....how you like it?"

In some places it's worse than others. I've had pretty good contacts with the DPS, and in the South in general --up in the Northeast, not so much. My small town police and sheriff deputy contacts have all been good --big cities, not so much. I find an "Us versus Them" attitude quite often in the big cities. Part of it, in the big cities, is the demonization of guns and self-defense. We're a long way from the days when it was not extraordinary for citizens in Austin to pull rifles from their vehicles and return fire on the Texas Tower sniper.