Qualification w/40 rounds?

[jimd1981]

If a student has clearly qualified by scoring 190-200 on the 3 and 7 yard strings (40 shots), can they stop?
That is, can he/she qualify with 40 rounds and skip the 15 yard strings -- or must they shoot 50 rounds, regardless?

The DPS says "To successfully qualify, shooters must complete this course with a minimum score of 70% (175 out of possible 250)."

They have more than the minimum score of 175, so I say they're fine. Stop if they want to.

What say you?

[Abraham]

Hhhhmmm, do you see law school in your future or simply a good shot trying to conserve ammo?

Or both?

[Ericstac]

If I remember correctly, the second time I took the full class was at Carter's and I didn't have to shoot the last series because I scored 100% upto that point.

[kg5ie]

If a student has clearly qualified by scoring 190-200 on the 3 and 7 yard strings (40 shots), can they stop?
That is, can he/she qualify with 40 rounds and skip the 15 yard strings -- or must they shoot 50 rounds, regardless?

The DPS says "To successfully qualify, shooters must complete this course with a minimum score of 70% (175 out of possible 250)."

They have more than the minimum score of 175, so I say they're fine. Stop if they want to.

What say you?

Have they "Completed the course"?

Of course I suppose their answer could be like the terminology used at the DPS qualification range. "Did you hold any rounds?" Answer:"Yes, 10." That way the scorer knows to account for those rounds. We were not "required" to fire all 50. We were instructed to deduct the "holds".

A second look at the Qualifications document states at the bottom, in red, to account for the 50 shots. If 10 were "held", you have accounted for 50.

[TexasCajun]

Waaaaay back in August when I took my class, both me and my friend finished early. So the RO that was assisting our instructor told us to have fun with the 15yd portion. Of course that was before the ammo shortage that we're seeing now.

[RossA]

I always joke with my students that almost anyone should be able to have enough points after the first two distances that he should be able to shoot his last ten rounds into the ground and still qualify.
Of course, I always follow up by letting them know that it was a joke and NOT to do that!

[gringop]

If a student has clearly qualified by scoring 190-200 on the 3 and 7 yard strings (40 shots), can they stop?
That is, can he/she qualify with 40 rounds and skip the 15 yard strings -- or must they shoot 50 rounds, regardless?

The DPS says "To successfully qualify, shooters must complete this course with a minimum score of 70% (175 out of possible 250)."

They have more than the minimum score of 175, so I say they're fine. Stop if they want to.

What say you?

See the requirement in bold above. Why would you not want them to shoot the 15 yard stage? Goals of only reaching the minimum standards produce minimum results. Do you think the DPS lets their officers stop at the 7 yard line stage because they have passed the minimum score?

We are testing firearm safety, gun handling and accuracy under a somewhat stressful time limit. If students look objectively at their performance at 15 yards, it might encourage them to practice a bit and improve themselves, not slouch towards mediocrity.

Gringop

[MamaK]

http://info.sos.state.tx.us/pls/pub/rea ... ch=6&rl=11" onclick="window.open(this.href);return false;

Really?

[TexasGal]

I take the statute's use of the words "will fire" at the 15 yard distance rather than the words "may fire" to mean students are expected to fire at that distance whatever their score is to that point. I am not saying it makes sense to everyone to require it, only that the statute seems clear. Sort of like the difference between "shall issue" and "may issue"

[ChrisNTX]

I require all students to shoot all 50 rounds, no exceptions. I require students to shoot the full course of fire that DPS prescribes. I am just a firm believer that no corners should be cut. Why take the chance. Although the rules say that a student must score 175/250 and they can technically do so, it also says the student "WILL shoot" 50 rounds from 3, 7, and 15 yards.

[sjfcontrol]

I require all students to shoot all 50 rounds, no exceptions. I require students to shoot the full course of fire that DPS prescribes. I am just a firm believer that no corners should be cut. Why take the chance. Although the rules say that a student must score 175/250 and they can technically do so, it also says the student "WILL shoot" 50 rounds from 3, 7, and 15 yards.

Really? And what happens when the student has a firearm stoppage and is unable to complete the current string? Does he get to shoot the rounds he missed out on? If not, he hasn't fired the full 50 rounds. That's either an "exception", or it is a violation of the rules regarding number of rounds fired and time allowed.

[Lucky]

I require all students to shoot all 50 rounds, no exceptions. I require students to shoot the full course of fire that DPS prescribes. I am just a firm believer that no corners should be cut. Why take the chance. Although the rules say that a student must score 175/250 and they can technically do so, it also says the student "WILL shoot" 50 rounds from 3, 7, and 15 yards.

Do you fail a student who leaves a test question blank instead of guessing?

[The Annoyed Man]

If a student has clearly qualified by scoring 190-200 on the 3 and 7 yard strings (40 shots), can they stop?
That is, can he/she qualify with 40 rounds and skip the 15 yard strings -- or must they shoot 50 rounds, regardless?

The DPS says "To successfully qualify, shooters must complete this course with a minimum score of 70% (175 out of possible 250)."

They have more than the minimum score of 175, so I say they're fine. Stop if they want to.

What say you?

I say that the very first line of the Texas Administrative Code concerning the test says:

(a) The proficiency demonstration course will be the same for both instructors and license applications. The course of fire will be at distances of three, seven, and fifteen yards, for a total of fifty rounds.

Everything else follows that statement: http://info.sos.state.tx.us/pls/pub/rea ... ch=6&rl=11

The last line of that section of the Texas Administration Code says:

(d) Upon successful completion of both the written and shooting proficiency examinations, the qualified handgun instructor may certify that the concealed handgun license applicant has established his or her proficiency, in a manner to be determined by the department.

My guess is that the state wouldn't take kindly to "gaming" the system if they knew it was going on.......but that's just me. For $140.00, I'll keep quiet about it.

[Lucky]

If a student has clearly qualified by scoring 190-200 on the 3 and 7 yard strings (40 shots), can they stop?
That is, can he/she qualify with 40 rounds and skip the 15 yard strings -- or must they shoot 50 rounds, regardless?

The DPS says "To successfully qualify, shooters must complete this course with a minimum score of 70% (175 out of possible 250)."

They have more than the minimum score of 175, so I say they're fine. Stop if they want to.

What say you?

I say that the very first line of the Texas Administrative Code concerning the test says:

(a) The proficiency demonstration course will be the same for both instructors and license applications. The course of fire will be at distances of three, seven, and fifteen yards, for a total of fifty rounds.

Everything else follows that statement: http://info.sos.state.tx.us/pls/pub/rea ... ch=6&rl=11

The last line of that section of the Texas Administration Code says:

(d) Upon successful completion of both the written and shooting proficiency examinations, the qualified handgun instructor may certify that the concealed handgun license applicant has established his or her proficiency, in a manner to be determined by the department.

My guess is that the state wouldn't take kindly to "gaming" the system if they knew it was going on.......but that's just me. For $140.00, I'll keep quiet about it.

As an instructor, what's your answer to sjfcontrol's question about a student who misses a shot during the time allowed because of an equipment malfunction or just shooting too slow?

[sjfcontrol]

The CHL proficiency exam is a 50-round course of fire. That, however, does NOT mean each and every student will fire all 50 rounds. There can be any number of reasons (as I implied above) why a student may not get off all 50 rounds. Running out of time, and firearm malfunction are two.

The purpose of the proficiency test is twofold...

1) For the student to demonstrate that he is knowledgable about the operation of the firearm, and is capable of handling it safely.
2) For the student to demonstrate that he can score a minimum of 175 out of a total of 250 points.

Even at the Austin DPS range, the person doing the scoring (the person next to you) is supposed to ask the shooter if he had any "holdbacks". Those are rounds that for whatever reason, were not fired. Those rounds are counted as "misses". DPS does NOT fail a prospective instructor because he did not fire all 50 rounds.

I would suggest that any instructor who failed a student that successfully demonstrated the two goals above, but did not fire all 50 rounds, would be courting issues with DPS when the student contacts them to complain about the instructor.

As an example, I was RSO for another instructor's class. One of the students decided he would use a number of his rounds to "draw a smiley face" on the head of his target. (Now before somebody claims that "Head shots are automatic disqualifiers", that is CHL urban legend.) Anyway, I considered how I would have handled this situation. The best resolution that I could come up with would be to go ahead and pass the student (assuming he got a passing score on both written and proficiency test), and send a letter to DPS explaining that although the student did get passing scores, he failed to follow instructions, and explain the situation -- thus letting DPS handle the issue as they see fit.