Can You Shoot to Protect Property in TEXAS

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gemini
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Re: Can You Shoot to Protect Property in TEXAS

#106

Post by gemini »

nightmare wrote:
tommyg wrote:Even if you beat any criminal wrap you will loose your property to law suits and lawyer fees.
Can you please share some examples in Texas? Your statement of risk to real and personal property from lawsuits is at odds with my understanding of Chapter 83, Civil Practice and Remedies Code, as well as Chapters 41 and 42, Property Code. Thanks for helping me understand better.
I'd also like to know where everyone is getting the fee amounts that are being quoted for defense representation. Plus,
having a Grand Jury hearing isn't always a bad thing. Depending of course how aggressively a DA might present his case.
The charge/case can be "put to bed" so to speak with a no-bill.
Again, Mr. S. Rothstein offers some of the best advice in this entire thread.
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tbrown
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Re: Can You Shoot to Protect Property in TEXAS

#107

Post by tbrown »

gemini wrote:I'd also like to know where everyone is getting the fee amounts that are being quoted for defense representation.
My guess would be from a marketing presentation for one of the subscription legal services.
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Re: Can You Shoot to Protect Property in TEXAS

#108

Post by srothstein »

nightmare wrote:Can you please share some examples in Texas? Your statement of risk to real and personal property from lawsuits is at odds with my understanding of Chapter 83, Civil Practice and Remedies Code, as well as Chapters 41 and 42, Property Code. Thanks for helping me understand better.
Just to point out that the immunity provided by Chapter 83 does not prevent a lawsuit from being filed. Any case may result in a lawsuit being filed, which means you need a lawyer to defend you. The immunity means you should win the case, but a judge could require a trial to determine if the shooting was justified or not. I think most judges would take a strong advisory position based on a no-bill from a grand jury, but this is not a guarantee.
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tbrown
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Re: Can You Shoot to Protect Property in TEXAS

#109

Post by tbrown »

No guarantees for sure but when somebody says something could happen, I think it's fair to ask for examples so we can judge the real risks, as opposed to hypothetical situations like Summer Glau taking me to breakfast tomorrow. :cool:
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Re: Can You Shoot to Protect Property in TEXAS

#110

Post by gemini »

tbrown wrote:No guarantees for sure but when somebody says something could happen, I think it's fair to ask for examples so we can judge the real risks, as opposed to hypothetical situations like Summer Glau taking me to breakfast tomorrow. :cool:
(whispering): wow, it got really quite in here....... :shock:
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Re: Can You Shoot to Protect Property in TEXAS

#111

Post by WildBill »

gemini wrote:
tbrown wrote:No guarantees for sure but when somebody says something could happen, I think it's fair to ask for examples so we can judge the real risks, as opposed to hypothetical situations like Summer Glau taking me to breakfast tomorrow. :cool:
(whispering): wow, it got really quite in here....... :shock:
I'm still thinking about how I want my eggs. :coolgleamA:
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Re: Can You Shoot to Protect Property in TEXAS

#112

Post by Munson »

Resurrecting a dead post...
This is how I teach it to my students, so let me know what you think. You have to first define what you are talking about. Burglary is stealing from inside your home. It is a greater offense than theft, so its considered burglary. Example: If I have a potted (not pot!) plant on my porch and someone steals it, that's theft. If that same potted plant is inside my house and its stolen, that's burglary. If I'm walking down the street carrying my potted plant and someone says (without a weapon) give me your potted plant in a threatening manner, that's robbery. If he has a weapon or causes me bodily injury, then its aggravated robbery. So now that we have defined what we are talking about we can discuss it. If someone is in your home, a REASONABLE person would construe that as burglary or some other felony and you would be legal to shoot that person. If they are in your vehicle parked in the driveway and you are inside your house and hear the dog barking, that is burglary...not covered because that falls under burglary of a vehicle. If that same person is stealing the entire vehicle, that's theft and would only be covered if it occurred at night. So if its at night and they are stealing your entire vehicle, you would be legal to shoot and that is the only time.

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Re: Can You Shoot to Protect Property in TEXAS

#113

Post by o b juan »

To the La. CHL Instructor

"B) the use of force other than deadly force to
protect or recover the land or property would expose the actor or
another to a substantial risk of death or serious bodily injury.

9;41 says you may go after your proerty and use FORCE to recover.

9:42 Says you may use deadly force

BUT the reis a colon or semi colon and the word AND OR after each semicolon in each paragraph rthat lists the offenses....

the semi colon or colon means we havent seen the complete law til the period and a new Penal code.

IT appears to me that if I go after my property to recover it I may use force but if he attempts unlawful deadly force I may then use deadly force use force.

You may only use deadly force to STOP unlawful deadly force Keeping in mind (Perception, reasonable doctrine and dISPARITY OF FORCE)


jOCAT 54 IS MIXING 9:32 AND 9:42 tHEY ARE 2 SEPERATE AND DISRINCT LAWS (Sorry about the caps )
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tacticool
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Re: Can You Shoot to Protect Property in TEXAS

#114

Post by tacticool »

o b juan wrote:To the La. CHL Instructor

"B) the use of force other than deadly force to
protect or recover the land or property would expose the actor or
another to a substantial risk of death or serious bodily injury.

9;41 says you may go after your proerty and use FORCE to recover.

9:42 Says you may use deadly force

BUT the reis a colon or semi colon and the word AND OR after each semicolon in each paragraph rthat lists the offenses....

the semi colon or colon means we havent seen the complete law til the period and a new Penal code.

IT appears to me that if I go after my property to recover it I may use force but if he attempts unlawful deadly force I may then use deadly force use force.

You may only use deadly force to STOP unlawful deadly force Keeping in mind (Perception, reasonable doctrine and dISPARITY OF FORCE)


jOCAT 54 IS MIXING 9:32 AND 9:42 tHEY ARE 2 SEPERATE AND DISRINCT LAWS (Sorry about the caps )
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Skiprr
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Re: Can You Shoot to Protect Property in TEXAS

#115

Post by Skiprr »

o b juan wrote:To the La. CHL Instructor

"B) the use of force other than deadly force to
protect or recover the land or property would expose the actor or
another to a substantial risk of death or serious bodily injury.

9;41 says you may go after your proerty and use FORCE to recover.

9:42 Says you may use deadly force

BUT the reis a colon or semi colon and the word AND OR after each semicolon in each paragraph rthat lists the offenses....

the semi colon or colon means we havent seen the complete law til the period and a new Penal code.
What? Come again? :headscratch
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baldeagle
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Re: Can You Shoot to Protect Property in TEXAS

#116

Post by baldeagle »

I don't know why this is such a hard topic. The law is pretty clear.
Sec. 9.41. PROTECTION OF ONE'S OWN PROPERTY. (a) A person in lawful possession of land or tangible, movable property is justified in using force against another when and to the degree the actor reasonably believes the force is immediately necessary to prevent or terminate the other's trespass on the land or unlawful interference with the property.

(b) A person unlawfully dispossessed of land or tangible, movable property by another is justified in using force against the other when and to the degree the actor reasonably believes the force is immediately necessary to reenter the land or recover the property if the actor uses the force immediately or in fresh pursuit after the dispossession and:

(1) the actor reasonably believes the other had no claim of right when he dispossessed the actor; or

(2) the other accomplished the dispossession by using force, threat, or fraud against the actor.

Acts 1973, 63rd Leg., p. 883, ch. 399, Sec. 1, eff. Jan. 1, 1974. Amended by Acts 1993, 73rd Leg., ch. 900, Sec. 1.01, eff. Sept. 1, 1994.


Sec. 9.42. DEADLY FORCE TO PROTECT PROPERTY. A person is justified in using deadly force against another to protect land or tangible, movable property:

(1) if he would be justified in using force against the other under Section 9.41; and

(2) when and to the degree he reasonably believes the deadly force is immediately necessary:

(A) to prevent the other's imminent commission of arson, burglary, robbery, aggravated robbery, theft during the nighttime, or criminal mischief during the nighttime; or

(B) to prevent the other who is fleeing immediately after committing burglary, robbery, aggravated robbery, or theft during the nighttime from escaping with the property; and

(3) he reasonably believes that:

(A) the land or property cannot be protected or recovered by any other means; or

(B) the use of force other than deadly force to protect or recover the land or property would expose the actor or another to a substantial risk of death or serious bodily injury.

Acts 1973, 63rd Leg., p. 883, ch. 399, Sec. 1, eff. Jan. 1, 1974. Amended by Acts 1993, 73rd Leg., ch. 900, Sec. 1.01, eff. Sept. 1, 1994.


Sec. 9.43. PROTECTION OF THIRD PERSON'S PROPERTY. A person is justified in using force or deadly force against another to protect land or tangible, movable property of a third person if, under the circumstances as he reasonably believes them to be, the actor would be justified under Section 9.41 or 9.42 in using force or deadly force to protect his own land or property and:

(1) the actor reasonably believes the unlawful interference constitutes attempted or consummated theft of or criminal mischief to the tangible, movable property; or

(2) the actor reasonably believes that:

(A) the third person has requested his protection of the land or property;

(B) he has a legal duty to protect the third person's land or property; or

(C) the third person whose land or property he uses force or deadly force to protect is the actor's spouse, parent, or child, resides with the actor, or is under the actor's care.

Acts 1973, 63rd Leg., p. 883, ch. 399, Sec. 1, eff. Jan. 1, 1974. Amended by Acts 1993, 73rd Leg., ch. 900, Sec. 1.01, eff. Sept. 1, 1994.
So you can use force to prevent the loss of property, and you can use deadly force when specific property crimes are committed (arson, burglary, robbery, aggravated robbery, theft during the nighttime, or criminal mischief during the nighttime) and there is no reasonable alternative to the use of deadly force.

There is some confusion about stealing vehicles because they are movable property, as is mentioned here, but there is a specific statute for burglary of a vehicle, and it's a class a misdemeanor whereas burglary is a felony offense.

Of course you can always use deadly force when threatened with deadly force, but that's not part of this discussion.
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Re: Can You Shoot to Protect Property in TEXAS

#117

Post by o b juan »

I am not a lawyeR. Went to USL Lafayette. 4 FBI School, La. Police academy Bunkie La.. BNDD Certificate LSU 1969
It pays well to read the complete law PERIOD

I read The UCMJ while I was in the service as an MP. I read the Law when I was in Law enforcenent in the late 60's and early 70's.

Lawyers writE differently than the rest of us.

The last paragraph in deadly force to protect property IS REALLY IMPORTANT...
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tbrown
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Re: Can You Shoot to Protect Property in TEXAS

#118

Post by tbrown »

o b juan wrote:Lawyers writE differently than the rest of us.
Don't forget English teachers. :biggrinjester:
o b juan wrote:The last paragraph in deadly force to protect property IS REALLY IMPORTANT...
Yes it is. If the thief is known to be nonviolent, like maybe my neighbor's 10 year old daughter is a kleptomaniac, then I wouldn't use deadly force, but I might use force to grab her arm and turn her over to her parents.

However, if the thief is an adult sized stranger, then it would be irresponsible to put myself in jeopardy by grabbing their arm to stop them. That would expose me to substantial risk of death or serious bodily injury. The criminal could have a history of violence. The criminal could have a weapon. The criminal could be on drugs. Maybe all three.
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Re: Can You Shoot to Protect Property in TEXAS

#119

Post by texanjoker »

I personally would not go outside and just shoot somebody over some petty crime because a chl instructor said I could. When I first moved to TX I took that class and heavily debated with the instructor on some of the nonsense he was spewing...like shooting somebody at night for graffiti? If a LEO shot a dude over graffiti alone or some simple property crime on the street would you support them? These examples are different then somebody breaking into your occupied home.

I too have been through a fatal OIS. It is very stressful on yourself and your family. Those were cases where my life was in imminent danger. While it may be necessary to save a life, I can assure you that it is not pleasant to have a person lying at your feet dead that you just shot. I personally would not want to find myself in a position where I just shot a person that was doing some petty crime.

Each of you will have to decide on their own if the situation presents itself. I pray for each of you that you never have to make that decision.

If you do use deadly force. DO WHAT THE LEO'S SAY when they arrive. There is a good chance you will be taken down at gun point so do what they say. DO NOT refuse to disarm. They do not know who you are. I would also spend the $$ and have an attorney present for the interview.
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Re: Can You Shoot to Protect Property in TEXAS

#120

Post by Jumping Frog »

I figure that even if I am in a shooting to protect property that is 100% legal and in accordance with the statute, it could easily set me back $10-$20 grand in legal fees. Sorry, but I am going to to exert every possible alternative to deadly force if I am simply trying to protect a couple hundred bucks worth of "stuff".

Now, if the property theft turns into robbery or other deadly threat, then that changes everything.
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