HB47: Reduction of Class Hours for Initial CHL

[Keith B]

I wish there was a button for "Instructor Applicant" who supports the bill, as that would be me. Texans are an adapting people - Instructors will find a way to keep their income while keeping classes 4-6 hours. I know I already have some ideas how I could make this work for me!

TBM

This just means that you should be able to teach two classes a day instead of just one. Wooohoooo, more money!!!

Not necessarily. If the class is only half as long, then it should only cost half as much. The net gain is zero. Regardless, I'm not opposed to instructors making a little extra money if it means the applicants spend less time and money on the class.

RX8er was saying this tongue-in-cheek. I don't believe $100 (what I paid for my class) is the right price. With that said, however, the $100 covered class time, range fees, and photos. So I predict either one of two things will happen if mandatory hours are reduced:
1. Class cost will come down, but not drastically. Maybe the average cost will be about $80 for everything (class time, range fees)
2. Class cost will come down dramatically, let's say $50 or so, but applicants will have to pay the range directly for range fees. And then the hairy part will be if ranges increase the cost for fees. That would be out of instructor control, or negotiated by instructor.

I look at this like pricing on an order of fries or soda at McDonald's. The difference in price between small and jumbo is very negligible usually. No matter what you order they still have to produce the product, handle it, put it in packaging, etc. That is where the majority of your cost is. Just adding a little more of the product does not cost that much more for the company and they don't try to make more of a percentage of profit on the increase.

[G26ster]

Some friends took a class, yet didn't know what the CHL-16 was, or that they could download it... Questions about carrying, where they can carry, etc..

I don't know why DPS eliminated the FAQ from the latest CHL-16, but the FAQ is now located here. It answers a lot of questions regularly asked on the Forum.

http://www.dps.texas.gov/RSD/CHL/faqs/index.htm" onclick="window.open(this.href);return false;

[Charles L. Cotton]

My concern is that I teach a VERY thorough class. I cover WAY more than what is on the test. I don't let the class wonder off topic, and I feel like I have to haul butt to get done in time to go to the range. Depending on class size and the shooting ability of the average student I tend to spend 8.5-9 hours on class time.

I have NEVER gone less than 10 hours total, so I can't imagine doing it in 4 hours.

Based on this comment, you must be teaching a 10 clock-hour course. If so, you can't be spending 8.5 to 9 hours teaching in the classroom, unless you are not providing the mandatory 10 to 15 minute breaks every hour. If you only spend 1 hour on the range, that leaves only 7.5 hrs (with 10 min. breaks) or 6.75 hrs. (with 15 min. breaks) in the classroom. DPS doesn't suggest breaks, they require them and for very good reasons.

If it went to 4, I guess I would have to just teach the test like some do now, and skip safety, NVDR, and maybe even all the scenarios that my students find extremely valuable.

Unless you are teaching only first-time students, you are doing it now; i.e. your renewal classes must be from 4 to 6 hours long, including range time. How long are your renewal classes? Are your renewal students currently getting insufficient training?

HB47 is going to amended in committee to require the course to be between 4 to 6 hours long, excluding range time. Therefore you can teach a 6 hour (plus range time) class if you like.

Applying the current time limit for renewal classes to the initial class will not require people to merely "teach the test." I could do that in about 30 minutes.

I don't understand how some instructors claims it can't be done in 4 to 6 hours when we've been doing it in 4 hours for 15 years!

Chas.

[benenglishtx]

I voted that I was in support of the bill. However, is there any chance that any other state will re-examine reciprocity with Texas if the course is shortened? Or is that a non-issue?

[G26ster]

I have read many threads about the CHL course, both Initial and Renewal, and what I hear very often is, "I barely can cover all the material in 10 hours." I don't know how much time, if any, the DPS spends in the Instructor course teaching any basic learning principles. But, in over 40 years of aviation training I have become a firm believer in the following "laws of learning" by Professor Edward Thorndike. Following Professor Thorndikes principles or "laws" would make it very difficult to even complete all the subject matter in 10 hours, and considering breaks that are necessary for learning to continue, a whole lot more. Here are a few that I hope that CHL Instructors will consider and kudos to those that do it now. Compare these to your CHL class that you attended or teach, and see how they stack up:

Primacy
Not to be confused with Law of primacy in persuasion.

Primacy, the state of being first, often creates a strong, almost unshakable, impression. Things learned first create a strong impression in the mind that is difficult to erase. For the instructor, this means that what is taught must be right the first time. For the student, it means that learning must be right. “Unteaching” wrong first impressions is harder than teaching them right the first time. If, for example, a student learns a faulty technique, the instructor will have a difficult task correcting bad habits and “reteaching” correct ones.

The student's first experience should be positive, functional, and lay the foundation for all that is to follow. What the student learns must be procedurally correct and applied the very first time. The instructor must present subject matter in a logical order, step by step, making sure the students have already learned the preceding step. If the task is learned in isolation, is not initially applied to the overall performance, or if it must be relearned, the process can be confusing and time consuming. Preparing and following a lesson plan facilitates delivery of the subject matter correctly the first time.

Intensity

The more intense the material taught, the more likely it will be retained. A sharp, clear, vivid, dramatic, or exciting learning experience teaches more than a routine or boring experience. The principle of intensity implies that a student will learn more from the real thing than from a substitute. For example, a student can get more understanding and appreciation of a movie by watching it than by reading the script. Likewise, a student is likely to gain greater understanding of tasks by performing them rather than merely reading about them. The more immediate and dramatic the learning is to a real situation, the more impressive the learning is upon the student. Real world applications that integrate procedures and tasks that students are capable of learning will make a vivid impression on them.

In contrast to practical instruction, the classroom imposes limitations on the amount of realism that can be brought into teaching. The instructor needs to use imagination in approaching reality as closely as possible. Classroom instruction can benefit from a wide variety of instructional aids, to improve realism, motivate learning, and challenge students. Instructors should emphasize important points of instruction with gestures, showmanship, and voice. Demonstrations, skits, and role playing do much to increase the learning experience of students. Examples, analogies, and personal experiences also make learning come to life. Instructors should make full use of the senses (hearing, sight, touch, taste, smell, balance, rhythm, depth perception, and others).

Recency

The principle of recency states that things most recently learned are best remembered. Conversely, the further a student is removed time-wise from a new fact or understanding, the more difficult it is to remember. For example, it is fairly easy to recall a telephone number dialed a few minutes ago, but it is usually impossible to recall a new number dialed last week. The closer the training or learning time is to the time of actual need to apply the training, the more apt the learner will be to perform successfully.

Information acquired last generally is remembered best; frequent review and summarization help fix in the mind the material covered. Instructors recognize the principle of recency when they carefully plan a summary for a lesson or learning situation. The instructor repeats, restates, or reemphasizes important points at the end of a lesson to help the student remember them. The principle of recency often determines the sequence of lectures within a course of instruction.

Readiness

Readiness implies a degree of concentration and eagerness. Individuals learn best when they are physically, mentally, and emotionally ready to learn, and do not learn well if they see no reason for learning. Getting students ready to learn, creating interest by showing the value of the subject matter, and providing continuous mental or physical challenge, is usually the instructor’s responsibility. If students have a strong purpose, a clear objective, and a definite reason for learning something, they make more progress than if they lack motivation. In other words, when students are ready to learn, they meet the instructor at least halfway, simplifying the instructor’s job.

Since learning is an active process, students must have adequate rest, health, and physical ability. Basic needs of students must be satisfied before they are ready or capable of learning. Students who are exhausted or in ill health cannot learn much. If they are distracted by outside responsibilities, interests, or worries, have overcrowded schedules, or other unresolved issues, students may have little interest in learning.

There are several others, but I though that these lended themselves most closely with CHL instruction as many of us have seen, or will see in the future, and I would hope that some level of "Instructor" training is conducted in the DPS class.

[benenglishtx]

OT/redacted

[G26ster]

Students who are exhausted or in ill health cannot learn much.

OT for here but I'd encourage an experienced instructor to start a thread on issues with teaching seriously infirm students.

Hopefully they will start a new thread and not take this one completely off topic.

[MasterOfNone]

Whoops, I just re-read the bill, and it does limit the class to 6 hours. Not sure what the rationale is behind that. If instructors want to teach a longer class, and there's sufficient demand, why not let them?

Unless I've misunderstood, the time limit does not prevent the instructor from offering additional instruction after the class. However, he cannot force students to remain longer than the six hours. In fact, if this change passes, I plan to offer additional material after the required class. My classes typically spend about 3 hours discussing the use of force statutes, so I will likely abbreviate that and include more in-depth discussion in the bonus session, among other topics.

[C-dub]

I voted that I was in support of the bill. However, is there any chance that any other state will re-examine reciprocity with Texas if the course is shortened? Or is that a non-issue?

That is a great question.

I voted in favor of reducing the time. I'm not sure how it can be done. I've attended three classes now. The first two were full length. I elected to do the full length class on my first renewal just to make sure there wasn't anything new I wouldn't miss. All three classes were packed full of applicants and information with no YT videos.

I would expect the price to come down, but maybe not quite in half. I think the instructors will still have the same amount of paperwork and basic responsibilities.

[Charles L. Cotton]

I voted that I was in support of the bill. However, is there any chance that any other state will re-examine reciprocity with Texas if the course is shortened? Or is that a non-issue?

No. Our renewal classes have been 4 hours for 15 years and that hasn't been a problem with reciprocity.

Chas.

[cw3van]

In full support, and an instructor. 10 hours is too long for people to retain most of the material. Cover the important parts (Chapter 46, Chapter 9, 30.06) and cut out the fluff.

Um, feel free to correct me, but its my understanding that the required subject matter would not change. So we'd still have to do NVDR, and all the other subjects. Right?

Right? Geees, I hope not! But, don't know at this point.

Have supported the reduction from 10 hours just to long for people lots of folks back out when they know it's all day. Cut it to 4 plus range time is a good class hope it passes. I'm a chl instructor.

[howdy]

Some friends took a class, yet didn't know what the CHL-16 was, or that they could download it... Questions about carrying, where they can carry, etc..

I don't know why DPS eliminated the FAQ from the latest CHL-16, but the FAQ is now located here. It answers a lot of questions regularly asked on the Forum.

http://www.dps.texas.gov/RSD/CHL/faqs/index.htm" onclick="window.open(this.href);return false;

As a CHL Instructor. I am all for this bill. If I want to go longer, I can. We need to get bad information off the TDPS website FAQ. See # 34 here: http://www.dps.texas.gov/RSD/CHL/faqs/index.htm" onclick="window.open(this.href);return false;

[bayouhazard]

Four hours is enough for a normal person who knows how to shoot. If someone doesn't know how to shoot, they can take a separate class for that. They should either make the class shorter or make the tests harder.

[Crossfire]

As a CHL Instructor. I am all for this bill. If I want to go longer, I can. We need to get bad information off the TDPS website FAQ. See # 34 here: http://www.dps.texas.gov/RSD/CHL/faqs/index.htm" onclick="window.open(this.href);return false;

Apparently, they last updated this in 1999...
But, as CHL instructors, we all know how well DPS communicates with, and updates us.

[Zoo]

I think there are more important things to pass. If we get this instead of campus carry, that's a bad trade.