Fire Marshal making up "laws"

[Charles L. Cotton]

well, is it that you can't call it a club unless you have more than 20 people, but it doesn't even have to be a business and "they" can call you a club if you have more than 20 people.....hey, wait a minute, how do "they" know if he has more than 20 people there in a year? he doesn't have a list! this is crazy and it's making my head hurt, the only thing I'm understanding from it for sure is that we can't have a get together at his house and texJ has a REALLY big family

It's not difficult. If you form a club or association to run a "sport shooting range" then you must have at least 20 different people shoot at the range annually. If you have no evidence that a club or association exists, or that at least 20 different people shoot there annually, then you will not have the proof you need to establish that you come under the protection of Texas' range protection law.

you can have 100 people shoot on your property annually, but if you are not a "business, club or association" they you are not a "sport shooting range." Merely firing rounds on your own property doesn't make you a statutorily defined "sport shooting range."

Chas.

[Charles L. Cotton]

Section 250.001(1) defines "sport shooting ranges" as a business, club or association. If the range isn't a business, but is operating as a club or association, Section 250.001(2) requires that at least 20 different people shoot at the range annually. We had to add the 20 person requirement to last session's SB766 (Range Protection Bill) in order to pass the bill. There was a concern that every property owner would claim to be a "shooting club" even if it wasn't actually a range.

Unless the property in question is being operated as a "sport shooting range," then having 20 people shoot there annually won't help.

Chas.

Let me see if I'm understanding; if I have more than 20 people annually then this is deemed a "sport shooting range"? And then they, fire marshal, can deem this as a business?

No, that's not the case. Merely having 20 or more people shoot on your real estate annually does not make your land a "sport shooting range." If you are 1) operating a "sport shooting range" as defined in Tex. Local Gov't Code Section 250.001; and 2) you are operating it as a club or association, then you must have a minimum of 20 different people shoot there annually.

None of this matters if you have 10 acres or less. How much land do you own?

Chas.

Thank you for helping me understand. :D

We own 9.999 acres. But we have been told this doesn't matter because the land is not in a subdivision. I think that is how they said that. So I'm lost as to what this all means.

If you are absolutely sure you are not in a subdivision with a plat, then you are correct about the size limitation. That said, the protection of the Texas Range Protection Law apply only to "sport shooting ranges" as defined in the Local Gov't Code.

Chas.

[03Lightningrocks]

This kind of post makes me sad. When I was a kid/teen, we could drive 15-20 minutes north of plano, hop out of the car at a creek bank and start shooting. Every time I find someone with a descent place to shoot, somebody else causes it to be shut down.

It is getting to be a challenge simply finding a spot to set up a few cans and have some fun.

[philip964]

Well I have run into a few Fire Marshall's in my line of work. Some carry guns, and I always say "yes sir" in the field. They seem to have a lot of latitude in how they do their job. I generally wait a few days and make an appointment to see the Chief after I have had the opportunity to review the particular code or ordinance. Sometimes they are in error, sometimes they are not.

[TexasGal]

This all makes me wish we could get suppressors removed from the draconian laws that keep them from being readily available without undue expense and red tape, but that is a different thread entirely

We hope to buy land farther out in the country in a county to semi-retire on and be able to shoot. I thought it had to be a minimum of 10 acres, but after reading the statute, I see it just can't be in a subdivision and be 10 acres or less. This story of one neighbor making life miserable is what we all hope to avoid.

[gigag04]

If you're in the county, you're fine.

Eventually the deputies will tell the neighbor to stop calling. Until someone is actually investigating you for a crime I wouldn't worry about it. Maybe even try and speak to the sheriff and see what can be done about your neighbor wasting his resources.

[suthdj]

Section 250.001(1) defines "sport shooting ranges" as a business, club or association. If the range isn't a business, but is operating as a club or association, Section 250.001(2) requires that at least 20 different people shoot at the range annually. We had to add the 20 person requirement to last session's SB766 (Range Protection Bill) in order to pass the bill. There was a concern that every property owner would claim to be a "shooting club" even if it wasn't actually a range.

Unless the property in question is being operated as a "sport shooting range," then having 20 people shoot there annually won't help.

Chas.

Let me see if I'm understanding; if I have more than 20 people annually then this is deemed a "sport shooting range"? And then they, fire marshal, can deem this as a business?

No, that's not the case. Merely having 20 or more people shoot on your real estate annually does not make your land a "sport shooting range." If you are 1) operating a "sport shooting range" as defined in Tex. Local Gov't Code Section 250.001; and 2) you are operating it as a club or association, then you must have a minimum of 20 different people shoot there annually.

None of this matters if you have 10 acres or less. How much land do you own?

Chas.

Thank you for helping me understand. :D

We own 9.999 acres. But we have been told this doesn't matter because the land is not in a subdivision. I think that is how they said that. So I'm lost as to what this all means.

If you are absolutely sure you are not in a subdivision with a plat, then you are correct about the size limitation. That said, the protection of the Texas Range Protection Law apply only to "sport shooting ranges" as defined in the Local Gov't Code.

Chas.

Chas
I am looking at buying some land what is the Min size I am allowed to shoot on, and if I buy x amount of land to shoot on then they build a subdivison around it will that prevent me from further shooting?

[KaiserB]

Ask him to cite the statute or regulation he believes applies.

I can't begin to tell you how many times I've seen people protest that something pertaining to firearms was forbidden because "it's against the law!" However, when pressed to cite the applicable statute or regulation, you get the gaping fish-mouth syndrome.

You are right on the money with your comment. I have had several people tell me "You can not do that it is illegal" to which my standard response is "Really, what law are you referring to (i.e. making them provide the TX PC, AC, or GC chapter)."

The one I hear most often is "You can not Concealed Carry in a church it is against the law" Asking them for a reference I usually get
GC §46.035 Unlawful Carrying of Handgun by License Holder
(b)—(6) on the premises of a church, synagogue, or other established place of religious worship.

However if the person keeps reading they find this later in the chapter:
GC §46.035 Unlawful Carrying of Handgun by License Holder
(i) Subsections (b)(4), (b)(5), (b)(6), and (c) do not apply if the actor was not given effective notice under Section 30.06.

[PUCKER]

TeXJ:

I trust you'll be having a TX CHL Shoot at your property in the *very* near future!

I want to but dont want to cause anybody to go to jail like they were telling my friends.

TeXJ: my sincerest guess/gut feeling is that the Fire Marshall is bluffing you and trying to flex his authoritative muscle. I've ran into a few of the "you know, I could take you to jail" types in my life. When you call them on their bull hockey (in a polite way) it typically is like deflating a balloon.

[suthdj]

Section 250.001(1) defines "sport shooting ranges" as a business, club or association. If the range isn't a business, but is operating as a club or association, Section 250.001(2) requires that at least 20 different people shoot at the range annually. We had to add the 20 person requirement to last session's SB766 (Range Protection Bill) in order to pass the bill. There was a concern that every property owner would claim to be a "shooting club" even if it wasn't actually a range.

Unless the property in question is being operated as a "sport shooting range," then having 20 people shoot there annually won't help.

Chas.

Let me see if I'm understanding; if I have more than 20 people annually then this is deemed a "sport shooting range"? And then they, fire marshal, can deem this as a business?

No, that's not the case. Merely having 20 or more people shoot on your real estate annually does not make your land a "sport shooting range." If you are 1) operating a "sport shooting range" as defined in Tex. Local Gov't Code Section 250.001; and 2) you are operating it as a club or association, then you must have a minimum of 20 different people shoot there annually.

None of this matters if you have 10 acres or less. How much land do you own?

Chas.

Thank you for helping me understand. :D

We own 9.999 acres. But we have been told this doesn't matter because the land is not in a subdivision. I think that is how they said that. So I'm lost as to what this all means.

If you are absolutely sure you are not in a subdivision with a plat, then you are correct about the size limitation. That said, the protection of the Texas Range Protection Law apply only to "sport shooting ranges" as defined in the Local Gov't Code.

Chas.

Chas
I am looking at buying some land what is the Min size I am allowed to shoot on, and if I buy x amount of land to shoot on then they build a subdivison around it will that prevent me from further shooting?

Awaiting reply from Charles. A friend and I were going to purchase a small acreage to do this outside of Pearland. We discussed it with his lawyer, who advised us that we would incur some liability if someone else, without our knowledge, hurt themselves while shooting there. Something akin to the liability of installing a swimming pool in the yard.

That is with any property, we can be sued for many things, you can never stop dishonest people for trying to take your money only prepare for it.

[TeXJ]

I agree that you should be able to shoot on your own place. However, we may not be getting the whole story here. To get the Fire Marshall involved, possibly they are using tracer or incendiary ammo, or using exploding targets. Or they could be shooting early or late. Or, the neighbor could just be a jerk.

We do shoot some tannerite, however that is perfectly legal and we've told the sheriffs that we were and they said that it is fine. One said just make sure we dont do a big finally. We usually just shoot one every so often. But we dont always have tannerite there, this particular time nobody had tannerite. We did shoot a .50bmg, twice is all.

That day we had right at about 20 people. Some were shooting at the berm others were in the back part of the property shooting skeet, about 5-6 people.

TeXJ:

I trust you'll be having a TX CHL Shoot at your property in the *very* near future!

I want to but dont want to cause anybody to go to jail like they were telling my friends.

TeXJ: my sincerest guess/gut feeling is that the Fire Marshall is bluffing you and trying to flex his authoritative muscle. I've ran into a few of the "you know, I could take you to jail" types in my life. When you call them on their bull hockey (in a polite way) it typically is like deflating a balloon.

I think he is trying to flex his muscle and I think they are tired of coming out and if they can stop us from shooting then they wont have to keep coming out. However, this really iritates me that they think they can tell me that I cant have friends on my own land enjoying our 2A rights.

[PUCKER]

TeXJ: google "crazy lady gun range" (warning: it will most likely come up showing AR15.com and some profanity on the thread)...here's a clean version on this forum:

viewtopic.php?f=10&t=16951" onclick="window.open(this.href);return false;

[TeXJ]

TeXJ: google "crazy lady gun range" (warning: it will most likely come up showing AR15.com and some profanity on the thread)...here's a clean version on this forum:

viewtopic.php?f=10&t=16951" onclick="window.open(this.href);return false;

Thanks that feels all too familiar. :(


Update: my dad went and talked with the fire marshal today in an hour meeting. Basically the fire marshal thinks we are a business and wants us to go through the hoopla that involves, $500k in insurance, engineering work,.... The Fire Marshal also said that we cannot have 20 people that at a time. Excuse me?! I thought this was America, where if a land owner can enjoy his freedoms and not have somebody making up laws/rules out of a whim.

So would the NRA be interested in helping, or even the 2nd Amendment foundation?