If involved in a shooting

[txinvestigator]

This past Saturday I had a large CHL class, and an attorney was a student. He felt the need to pipe up whenever he thought a particular point was important. I try to allow feedback in classes, and I encourage student participation and comment.

At one point, he decided to give his legal advice about what a person should do regarding the police if ever involved in a shooting. His advice was to not speak to the police AT ALL about the incident until in the presence of one's attorney. In fact, he advised that when calling 911 that the shooter should only mention that there was a dead/shot person at his location, and hang up without giving any other details.

I disagree and have my own thoughts, but would like Charle's opinions.

Other instructors are welcome to offer your POV.

Thanks.

[Charles L. Cotton]

We discussed this in the seminar we had at PSC a few months ago. There are two different times you would likely be talking to an investigating officer after a shooting. One is at the scene and the other would be during an interview at the PD. If I were faced with that situation, I would give the officer responding to the scene a short statement of what happened, avoiding the use of any inflammatory terms. To say more at a time when you likely would be very upset and suffering from adrenalin dump would be unwise. If the officer or a detective felt a full interview would be required, I wouldn't do that until my attorney was present.

My concern with remaining totally silent at the scene is the effect this will have on the officer first responding. He has to put something in his report and I don't want it to be "I asked the subject what happened and he just gave me a blank stare," or "I'm not talking until I have my lawyer with me." I much prefer a short and accurate statement. However, if a person's personality will not let them give a short response, then they could respond with something to the effect of "based on advise of counsel, I will be happy to talk to you when my attorney is present."

Regards,
Chas.

[txinvestigator]

I have to ask...

What do you think of the advice of folks like Ayoob, who suggest pointing to the downed offender on the arrival of the police at the scene and saying something along the lines of. "there he is officer, thats the man who tried to stab me. I'll press charges"

:)

[Charles L. Cotton]

I have to ask...

What do you think of the advice of folks like Ayoob, who suggest pointing to the downed offender on the arrival of the police at the scene and saying something along the lines of. "there he is officer, thats the man who tried to stab me. I'll press charges"

:)

I've heard that one too. I can't help but chuckle, but I think they are serious. I think that would be hard to reconcile with wanting to make a short unembellished statement, then take time to calm down before talking further.

Regards,
Chas.

[txinvestigator]

I have to ask...

What do you think of the advice of folks like Ayoob, who suggest pointing to the downed offender on the arrival of the police at the scene and saying something along the lines of. "there he is officer, thats the man who tried to stab me. I'll press charges"

:)

I've heard that one too. I can't help but chuckle, but I think they are serious. I think that would be hard to reconcile with wanting to make a short unembellished statement, then take time to calm down before talking further.

Regards,
Chas.

heeheehee

[cxm]

The best advice I have heard is to make a very short, polite statement to the responding officer to the effect you have had to defend yourself. Then add you very much want to help their investigation and will cooperate fully, but you are very upset by the events, and will be willing to make a formal statement as soon as you are able to consult with your attorney.

I talked to a guy involved who was in a self defense shooting in another state some years ago who used this approach. Cop said something like "if you don't have anything to hide why won't talk to me now?" Guy replied, politely to the effect "for the same reason you won't talk to investigators without your union attorney if you are involved in a justified shooting." He said the cop looked at him and said "good thinking" and was very reasonable.

The main thing I try to teach students on this it to keep in mind the fact that no matter how justified you may be in the use of deadly don't assume the cops are your friends (Harris County and it's wacko DA comes to mind) and don't assume they are no matter how friendly they may seem. Don't say anything you don't potentially have repeted in court.

Because I don't give legal advice, I don't tell them what to do... but my personal plan is to give a short clear statement (somewhat prepared in my mind in advance so I don't have to wing it under pressure) and shut up until Mr Cotton gets there :D

V/r

Chuck

This past Saturday I had a large CHL class, and an attorney was a student. He felt the need to pipe up whenever he thought a particular point was important. I try to allow feedback in classes, and I encourage student participation and comment.

At one point, he decided to give his legal advice about what a person should do regarding the police if ever involved in a shooting. His advice was to not speak to the police AT ALL about the incident until in the presence of one's attorney. In fact, he advised that when calling 911 that the shooter should only mention that there was a dead/shot person at his location, and hang up without giving any other details.

I disagree and have my own thoughts, but would like Charle's opinions.

Other instructors are welcome to offer your POV.

Thanks.

[Kyle Brown]

I consider this the most difficult topic of instruction. In stead of telling the students "what" to do, I ask them to tell me what they believe they will do should this situation arise. The majority say they will follow a course of action simular to that outlined by CXM. During the course of discussion, most admit the plan is not original. In short, their plan has been developed based on TV shows such as LA Law or, more recently, Boston Legal.

Several months ago, I had a renewal student who spoke from experience. He was the first licensed person in this county to defend himself and his property with the use of deadly force. This individual is a physically handicaped, white male and at the time of the shooting, he was in is mid-sixties.

The evening before the incident, he packed his car in preparation for a trip to Houston. He plannned to leave "at first light."

About 4AM, he heard an unusual noise outside of the stand alone warehouse he had converted into his workshop/residence. He got up, dressed, raised the garage door, backed his van onto the street, and drove (traveled ?) around the corner to the opposite side of the building where he hoped determine the source of the noise.

There, he saw a large, younger man lifting his AC unit into the covered trailer of a large truck parked on the street. He lowered the driver's side window of his van, pointed his gun at the perp and yelled to the perp instructing him to place the AC unit on the street and go away. The perp never spoke but started walking toward the van. He told the perp to not come closer or he would shoot. The perp continued his walk toward the van. He again told the perp to stop or he would shoot. Again, the perp ignored the warning and continued his silent walk toward the van.

The single shot he fired from his .380 struck the perp in the upper left chest. The bullet exited the perp's chest and lodged in the rear of the covered trailer. (Ball ammo.) The perp fell to the ground and stated he thought he was dying. He yelled to the perp to shut up or he would shoot him again. He then called the police from his cell phone at which time he gives a not so short version of what has occured.

The first officer on the scene takes his weapon at gun point. When the other officers arrive, he gives a statement to the officer in charge who determines no arrest will be made. However, the officer tells him to not leave the city "for a while."

He tells the officer he leaving for Houston in "a few minutes" and will return to Abilene "in three or four days." The officer takes phone numbers, etc and then apologizes for having to keep his gun. He tells the officer not to worry because he has "several others" in the house.

Now, my written recount is not near as "entertaining" as his telling of the story.

BTW, the perp did not die and was not prosecuted. The perp was employed by a large trucking company in OK. His dispatcher had put the wrong address on a work order.

[James Bishop]

My CHL instructor, an active duty police officer told my class the best thing to do is to tell the officer who arrives at the scene, ..." He was trying/going to kill me. I want my attorney."Seems like pretty good advice. He also said most people muddy up the waters trying to explain precisely what happened and why it happened. The best response he said was to have your attorney present when you go downtown to write out an affadavit of fact. Nothing more then ,..."he was trying to kill me" and I want me attorney.

[hydrashok]

I was involved in a fatal shooting several years ago (a week after I got my CHL). I never hired a lawyer, and I fully and completely cooperated with the police. I was never arrested or booked and never saw the inside of a jail cell. I was hauled to the station, questioned, and released.

[kauboy]

No, you were lucky

My CHL instructor told us that the best way to respond to the on scene officer is to say "I was defending myself. I wish to fully cooperate and I will answer all of your questions, but I would like my attorney present when I do." He said that sometimes officers will continue to poke and prod while trying to buddy up to you in an attempt to get you to say something or slip and say the wrong thing, but that we should always respond with the exact same thing.