Fla: Conceal Carry Holder Arrested for Incidental Exposure

[WildBill]

Stay in the vehicle. Papers in hand, hands on the wheel by the time officer gets to your window. Hand it all over when asked. It's just not that hard.

Keep your mouth shut.

[gigag04]

Wow.

A few things come to mind -

First the cop:
He needs to keep things more calm. I agree with going to condition Orange, and taking control of the situation immediately. However, that can be done with tact and professionalism, up until somebody is actually trying to kill you. Then all bets are off...

His tactics are terrible in a few ways - I ask everyone if they are armed, carrying drugs, or in possesion of stolen property. Of course they say no usually, but it's how they say no that interests me. This guy probably would have said yes. I also do this while people are seated in the car. Getting people out is a "400 level" skill best left to the level headed. He prones the guy out, ok, if we are freaking out about a gun, I guess that makes sense, but then has him put his hands behind his back (by said gun) and then leaves sight of him to clear the car. This is just terrible, and incredibly dangerous - assuming he perceived this poor guy and his gun to be a threat. The telling moment in loosing his cool was "I don't care if you have a permit" for me.

How I would've done it: sure put his hands against the car, and start asking about the gun. Check for a permit, or whatever you need to do, maybe even have the interlock his fingers behind his head (where I can hold them there) until I dug enough to feel safe, or sack him up. I definitely wouldn't start cussing at him like he was hitting my wife...


The violator:
I inform LEOs I'm armed when I am stopped, and I appreciate the same courtesy. Surprises usually work against you when you're stopped, so that helps to avoid some cop freaking out on you. Guns are not huge deal to most of here, but the side of town where I work, most people found with weapons by LEOs go to jail (felons, gang members, drunk, robbery suspects). The violator didn't do anything "wrong" per say, but I offer some helpful hints to avoid this situation.




I'll be showing this video in our shift briefing for discussion.

[JJVP]

I feel for the guy. Stay in the vehicle. Papers in hand, hands on the wheel by the time officer gets to your window. Hand it all over when asked. It's just not that hard. Trust me. I have A L O T of experience in the matter.

There are some states that require you to exit the car when stopped. Don't know if FL is one.

[dihappy]

Gig, great input. Thanks

[JALLEN]

The driver was not acting erratic or threatening in any way, and was compliant. When asked for documents, etc he produced them.

What's to stop the officer from reacting exactly the same way if you are sitting there hands on the wheel, and tell him you have a permit and a weapon? Next thing you know you're on the pavement handcuffed? Seems like a huge over reaction in the circumstances to me. It's good to have it on video so we don't have to wonder what REALLY happened.

[StevenFromTexas]

Had the driver stayed in the driver's seat with his hands on the steering wheel and immediately informed the officer he had a permit to carry and had a weapon on the right side of his body, I expect we wouldn't be watching the video at all. For me, it isn't necessary to comment on anthing that happened after that. The initial action of the driver is why we are now watching the video.

[Keith B]

Interesting video. This is a perfect example of why you should avoid letting cops know you have a gun. Don't let him see it. Don't let him smell it. Don't let him hear you tell him about the gun or a license or anything that might trigger him. What he doesn't know can't hurt you.

First off, I feel this is very poor advice. The officer spotted the gun and didn't know about it ahead of time. While in this case I believe the officer went way overboard, I believe you should inform the officer that you are carrying so they know before you get out of the vehicle with your hand in plain view. All you have to do is state 'Officer, for your information I have a license to carry a concealed weapon and am armed. How do you want me to proceed?' This information up front will save you some potential headaches later. Being forthcoming about the weapon will be a lot better than the officer perceiving you are trying to cover something up like your user name implies is the way to handle things.

BTW, I am a former LEO and this is how I would want it handled. I believe most LEO's would prefer this method.

[JALLEN]

BTW, I am a former LEO and this is how I would want it handled. I believe most LEO's would prefer this method.

This is very sound, reasonable and rational. The trouble is, it is not universal, and you never know when you are going to be confronted by irrationality. If we could count on cops "doing the right thing" it would be easy.

I think one of this fellow's problems was his appearance. I imagine, because I cannot know, that approaching a driver who is younger, ill-groomed, haphazardly dressed, etc is a much different proposition than someone like me, old, pudgy, dignified, jovial, etc.

My youngest son used to sport dreadlocks, when he was young and foolish, one of the few whites I've ever seen with that peculiar hairdo, and drove a typical impoverished young person's car. He got pulled over and searched for drugs about every third time he ventured out. I'm sure he had far more stops in 5 years than I've had in 50. Busted tail lights, expired tags, a car meeting that description reported stolen, just about every excuse to light him up imaginable.

[Krampus]

This is very sound, reasonable and rational. The trouble is, it is not universal, and you never know when you are going to be confronted by irrationality. If we could count on cops "doing the right thing" it would be easy.

You said a mouthfull Brother. It's unfortunate when citizens have to take these kind of precautions, but that's the way it is if you follow the news. The way to change that is not by complaining about the precautions or punishing citizens who take precautions, but fix the system so the precautions are not needed. When that happens they will wither away all by themselves.

I feel the same way about Texans getting nonresident licenses. If it's a problem, the solution isn't punishing Texans who get a license from another state. The solution is changing the system so a Texas CHL doesn't cost twice as much as many other states, and doesn't require extraneous training.

Use the free market to fix the problem, not Central Planning.

[Keith B]

BTW, I am a former LEO and this is how I would want it handled. I believe most LEO's would prefer this method.

This is very sound, reasonable and rational. The trouble is, it is not universal, and you never know when you are going to be confronted by irrationality. If we could count on cops "doing the right thing" it would be easy.

I think one of this fellow's problems was his appearance. I imagine, because I cannot know, that approaching a driver who is younger, ill-groomed, haphazardly dressed, etc is a much different proposition than someone like me, old, pudgy, dignified, jovial, etc.

My youngest son used to sport dreadlocks, when he was young and foolish, one of the few whites I've ever seen with that peculiar hairdo, and drove a typical impoverished young person's car. He got pulled over and searched for drugs about every third time he ventured out. I'm sure he had far more stops in 5 years than I've had in 50. Busted tail lights, expired tags, a car meeting that description reported stolen, just about every excuse to light him up imaginable.

Appearance is one of the major factors that will definitely sway a LEO. It is basically all they have to go on when making a stop before they get to interact with the subject. While they may not be prejudice overall, first appearances are everything to everyone. We all judge someone we see when them approach us. That is what makes us go on alert or stay in condition yellow.

This very reason is why I state you should stay in your vehicle with the weapon concealed, and when they approach make sure you let them know you have a CHL and are armed. In Texas, you must do this when asked for ID by law, so it is smart to do it as soon as possible to let the officer you you are forthcoming and are not trying to hide anything.

[Keith B]

Watched this the other day. I think if he would of just said he had a gun on him and had a permit to carry the stop would have went differently. I understand that he is not required to tell him anything but I think its better he finds out from you rather then spotting it himself. Just my .02

I disagree. Under FL law he is not required to notify unless asked and, judging by this cops completely unprofessional attitude and behavior, it most likely would have gone even worse. Officers like this give the rest a bad name.

Wrong, under FL law you DO have to display your license when asked for ID. He did not do this.

790.06 …. The licensee must carry the license, together with valid identification, at all times in which the licensee is in actual possession of a concealed weapon or firearm and must display both the license and proper identification upon demand by a law enforcement officer. Violations of the provisions of this subsection shall constitute a noncriminal violation with a penalty of $25, payable to the clerk of the court.

[Right2Carry]

Watched this the other day. I think if he would of just said he had a gun on him and had a permit to carry the stop would have went differently. I understand that he is not required to tell him anything but I think its better he finds out from you rather then spotting it himself. Just my .02

I disagree. Under FL law he is not required to notify unless asked and, judging by this cops completely unprofessional attitude and behavior, it most likely would have gone even worse. Officers like this give the rest a bad name.

Wrong, under FL law you DO have to display your license when asked for ID. He did not do this.

790.06 …. The licensee must carry the license, together with valid identification, at all times in which the licensee is in actual possession of a concealed weapon or firearm and must display both the license and proper identification upon demand by a law enforcement officer. Violations of the provisions of this subsection shall constitute a noncriminal violation with a penalty of $25, payable to the clerk of the court.

So even if he failed to notify all he is liable for is a $25 dollar fine payable to the clerk of the court which is a noncriminal violation. The officer in the video was way out of line and should be reprimanded based on the above information. The man and woman both told the officer at some point he had a permit to carry the weapon at which point the officer should have investigated and then released the man since he had only committed a noncriminal violation with a paltry $25 dollar fine.

[chasfm11]

Appearance is one of the major factors that will definitely sway a LEO. It is basically all they have to go on when making a stop before they get to interact with the subject. While they may not be prejudice overall, first appearances are everything to everyone. We all judge someone we see when them approach us. That is what makes us go on alert or stay in condition yellow.

This very reason is why I state you should stay in your vehicle with the weapon concealed, and when they approach make sure you let them know you have a CHL and are armed. In Texas, you must do this when asked for ID by law, so it is smart to do it as soon as possible to let the officer you you are forthcoming and are not trying to hide anything.

In general, I agree with what you are saying but seek a couple of clarifications.

1. Judging only by appearance is profiling. While I understand, at some level, the need to do that, it can have the result of discrimination if it is allowed to go too far. Since it has the potential for abuse, it is an area where constant emphasis by departments should be placed. To me, there is a big difference between me using Situational Awareness to keep an eye on those who appear to be more of a threat to me than others and a LEO using profiling to take actions against citizens. One is passive, the other is aggressive. What say you?

2. When taking action, one's motives are sometimes displayed. The officer in this case, I believe, betrayed some of his underlying thought process and it wasn't for the better of himself or his fellow officers. If he had methodically just taken control of the situation, even to the point of putting the man on the ground and handcuffing him, I would have been a lot more OK with it. The threats to shoot an otherwise compliant citizen and his foray into abusive language are as much about "appearance" as anything that the citizen did.

[jimlongley]

Extreme example of overreaction by the officer involved, and the statements he made about the CHL holder's actions were way off base. "You come jumpin' out of the car"; "Waving your hand around behind you"; and so on, he sounds just like the guy I was "debating" on facebook who said that the active shooter in Clackamas shooting himself when confronted by a concelaed handgun licensee was an example of how guns cause suicide.

What the officer said, compared to the video, which he stated he was going to use as evidence, was a vast misrepresentation of what actually happened. That, combined with such things as the officer's escalation when the driver didn't magically get up against the car or down on the ground, makes this appear to me to be an example of an officer in need of counseling.

[jmra]

I would say there was monumental failures by both parties. Plenty of blame to go around.