Mental Illness Database?

CHL discussions that do not fit into more specific topics

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Geister
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#31

Post by Geister »

tvone wrote:It's not the firearms I'm worried about. It's the mental status of the individual. Just because you didn't threaten anyone with your firearms, didn't mean you weren't a threat to youreself at that time.
Oh, so it's the government's job to keep people from being threats to themselves? That sounds a lot like SLAVERY to me.
My ex never threatened to harm herself or others with a firearm. I still wouldn't want her to have access to a firearm through a dealer. It was her mental state I was worried about. I'm not blaming firearms.
Yes you are. What makes you think she would harm herself in any other way? Did you childproof your entire house?

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tvone
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#32

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I had the opportunity to sit down with 2 doctors and posed this very question.

Both agreed that it should be done.

Both agreed that it would be impossible due to privacy laws and the ACLU.

One doctor didn't think it would be acceptable to have armed citizens in a classroom, and went as far as saying not even an off-duty LEO. "If we get to that point where we feel the need to have firearms in classrooms then we have already lost".

Another interesting quote: "Handguns cannot stop handgun violence".

He also couldn't wrap his hands around the idea that normal ordinary citizens would want to go through the process of of getting a CHL and carry in a classroom. "We'd have to pay someone to do that!"

At this point, we agreed to disagree.

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tvone
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#33

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Yes you are. What makes you think she would harm herself in any other way? Did you childproof your entire house?

In fact, I did.
I took every knife out out the kitchen except the butter knife. No BBQ forks either.

My turning point in that marriage is when I got home from leaving her at the hospital the first time. The weight of the world was off my shoulders. For the first time in months, maybe years, I slept soundly. As the day got closer to her release, I could feel the dread building. It still took years before I left, still hoping for the best.

edit to make it a little clearer.
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Liberty
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#34

Post by Liberty »

I am another who doesn't believe that the simple fact of being crazy should be enough to keep anyone from ownining a gun or getting a CHL. I've been truly blessed to have known and been around some eccentrics, and even some certifiable crazys. Some I would trust my life to. None of them would I want to deny the most basic right to protect themself.

Names changed to protect the innocent.

Elaine lost her husband when he went of to his job on a fishing boat and never came back. She was put on some heavy duty drugs .. after about 2 years she and her family had enough of her being a zombie. She went cold turkey one day and continued went to work and is living a normal life.


Anastasia has panic attacks and can't even drive a car. Yet she is level headed in her own way. She understands that the she has no rational reason to feel paniced ... She is trustworthy in her judgement its just that sometimes moments she is pretty unfunctional.

Jerry, a brilliant programer and crazy as a loon. He would tell us all of crazy dreams and thought. He would explain how he could go tripping by just closing his eyes. Yet he was one of the smartest people I've known, he never hurt anyone. and could be trusted to do anything he he promissed.

Crazy Joel. A local charactor where I grew up. Would talk our ear off telling stories and talking about other charactors long gone. He walked with a bad limp, and his voice was slured, but his English was fine even though he was not born in this country. He nearly got killed when a shell tore a chunk of his skull from his head. After all he came to this country because the Fascist chased him out. Him and his brother had a score to settle.

I wouldn't want anyone of these folks to be denied the right to own a gun. All are/were trustworthy.

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tvone
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#35

Post by tvone »

I agree, none of those examples would fall under the catagory of being mentally incapacitated to the point they are a danger.

None of them had been committed unvoluntarily to a hospital and deemed a danger.

I'm talking about the truly dangerous individuals, like the VT loon, the kid in Frisco wanting to be a seriel killer, or my ex-wife who wanted to skin me alive and roast me over a fire. The type of person who says "I want to kill xyz" and you know they mean it.
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Liberty
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#36

Post by Liberty »

tvone wrote:I agree, none of those examples would fall under the catagory of being mentally incapacitated to the point they are a danger.

None of them had been committed unvoluntarily to a hospital and deemed a danger.

I'm talking about the truly dangerous individuals, like the VT loon, the kid in Frisco wanting to be a seriel killer, or my ex-wife who wanted to skin me alive and roast me over a fire. The type of person who says "I want to kill xyz" and you know they mean it.
I believe most of truly crazy are smart enough to hide it from those who have any power to make a decision.

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#37

Post by Geister »

tvone wrote:I had the opportunity to sit down with 2 doctors and posed this very question.
Who cares what doctors think? Malpractice kills more people per year than gunshot wounds.

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#38

Post by Geister »

tvone wrote: I'm talking about the truly dangerous individuals, like the VT loon, the kid in Frisco wanting to be a seriel killer, or my ex-wife who wanted to skin me alive and roast me over a fire. The type of person who says "I want to kill xyz" and you know they mean it.
TVone, you need to freaking get over the fact that it's not the government's job to protect you. It's YOUR job to protect YOURSELF. The only good that laws do is to punish those that commit crimes.

You're just a typical knee-jerk liberal who wants the government to be nosy in our lives due to a handful of situations. You don't seem to understand that in a free society, citizens are not put into databases.

If your wife wanted to kill herself she could have bought some antifreeze at the auto parts store and drank it.

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#39

Post by Lucky45 »

Geister wrote:
tvone wrote:It's not the firearms I'm worried about. It's the mental status of the individual. Just because you didn't threaten anyone with your firearms, didn't mean you weren't a threat to youreself at that time.
Oh, so it's the government's job to keep people from being threats to themselves? That sounds a lot like SLAVERY to me.
C'mon Geister, PLEASE!!! Don't even go there, cause obviously you don't know the definition of slavery.
Also, if you subscribe to that belief then you should have no problem with protesting about the wasting off tax dollars with police, ambulances, etc when these nutcases every week want to jump off a bridge, cut their wrist/neck or shoot themself. Would love to be the 911 operator and just hang up when you get those call? Let them do it.!!!

I'm off that subject.
What makes you think that every single person that goes through mental illness is going to shoot a bunch of people? You can't. Going through depression is like getting the flu. More people than not have went through depression.
I am not talking about depression. I am talking about mentally sickness to the point where those people are a threat to others and have to be remove from general population, per se. for everyone's safety.

Liberty is talking about all these supposedly "crazy" people he knows but I bet he would not leave his kid for them to babysit. Or he would not have them stay over for the weekend, if they are that safe. It is fine to say stuff in broad daylight, but will you trust them with your eyes closed.

No one has a mission to take away others freedom under the constitution, but we are not living in a utopia world where everything is roses. Like said earlier, plenty others have rights too and they are barred from getting a handgun after mental "REHABILITATION." I think they call it that. after 15 years in 6x10 cell.
If you don't stand for something, then you will fall for anything.

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Liberty
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#40

Post by Liberty »

Lucky45 wrote:.
What makes you think that every single person that goes through mental illness is going to shoot a bunch of people? You can't. Going through depression is like getting the flu. More people than not have went through depression.
I am not talking about depression. I am talking about mentally sickness to the point where those people are a threat to others and have to be remove from general population, per se. for everyone's safety.

Liberty is talking about all these supposedly "crazy" people he knows but I bet he would leave his kid for them to babysit. Or he would have them stay over for the weekend, if they are that safe. It is fine to say stuff in broad daylight, but will you trust them with your eyes closed.

No one has a mission to take away others freedom under the constitution, but we are not living in a utopia world where everything is roses. Like said earlier, plenty others have rights too and they are barred from getting a handgun after mental "REHABILITATION." I think they call it that. after 15 years in 6x10 cell.
I would trust most of the people I mentioned with my kids at some point. Elaine had in fact had baby sat my children. and I was a young child when I first met Joel. A couple of them have spent the night at my house.

The reality is that more people are hurt raped or killed because they have no means of defense Its very rare that some crazy goes postal and kills a bunch of people. By denying thre crazies we would put less importance on their lifes than on those of us who may be more whole.

Someone yesterday said that Liviu Librescu was crazy for trying to keep out Cho Like he did. I wish he had a gun.

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#41

Post by Lucky45 »

Liberty wrote: By denying thre crazies we would put less importance on their lifes than on those of us who may be more whole.
Can you answer the direct question about a felon who is whole that has been "rehabilatated" in prison and is released. They are denied posessing a gun. Are their lives of less important?? Now remember you can be a felon for many different reasons, not just robbery or murder.
If you don't stand for something, then you will fall for anything.

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tvone
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#42

Post by tvone »

Geister wrote: TVone, you need to freaking get over the fact that it's not the government's job to protect you. It's YOUR job to protect YOURSELF. The only good that laws do is to punish those that commit crimes.

You're just a typical knee-jerk liberal who wants the government to be nosy in our lives due to a handful of situations. You don't seem to understand that in a free society, citizens are not put into databases.
That's a first!

I'll need to pass that around to the people I work with. They all think I'm a Neo-Con sitting on the right of John Birch.

As someone else said, we don't live in a Utopia. I'm a firm beleiver in my personal responsibility to protect myself and my family. There are those who by choice (criminals) or the mentally impaired(and here, I'm talking certified insane, NOT DEPRESSION, NOT WACKY, NOT ECENTRIC!) that lose the right to possess a firearm. Criminals who have truly been rehabilitated CAN have their rights restored. Those who are mentally impaired need our protection, whether it's family, church, or gov't.

You're already in more than a few databases...got a SS#, bank account, email, insurance, own a vehicle, property, credit cards, etc?

Without some gov't, you're left with anarchy.

Let's keep it civil.
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carlson1
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#43

Post by carlson1 »

tvone wrote:Let's keep it civil.
:thumbsup:
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#44

Post by pbandjelly »

Liberty wrote:I believe most of truly crazy are smart enough to hide it from those who have any power to make a decision.
Yes, yes we are... er, I mean they!!!
Geister wrote:Who cares what doctors think? Malpractice kills more people per year than gunshot wounds.
:lol:
sadly enough, true.
that's like asking a BasketBall player for their opinion on politics. Let the experts be experts in their field. I don't ask my cardiologist about my pancreas!! :razz:

Geister
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#45

Post by Geister »

Lucky45 wrote: C'mon Geister, PLEASE!!! Don't even go there, cause obviously you don't know the definition of slavery.
No, Lucky, it's obvious that YOU don't. I guess you assume that a person is only enslaved when they're wearing chains and working the fields.

If all of our personal information is in government databases and we have to ask someone permission to do ANYTHING non-threatening, then WE ARE SLAVES.

If you would read the works of our Founding Fathers, you would understand that WE are supposed to control the government, not the other way around. They should be asking US for permission to do things, not the other way around.
Lucky45 wrote: Also, if you subscribe to that belief then you should have no problem with protesting about the wasting off tax dollars with police, ambulances, etc when these nutcases every week want to jump off a bridge, cut their wrist/neck or shoot themself. Would love to be the 911 operator and just hang up when you get those call? Let them do it.!!!
What in the world are you talking about? What I said is that people should NOT be denied their Rights because they MIGHT do something.

The government should NOT own me. I get tired of hearing about America's freedoms when at the same time I hear proposals toto put in a new government database and have to ask for permission to do ANYTHING non-threatening. You can't have both.

Once you start asking for the government permission to do anything, you give up more and more of your Rights until we are all just sheep.
I am not talking about depression.
There is NO clear cut line between different mental ailments. I've known people who've suffered through depression who also displayed signs of bipolar disorder. I've also known someone who had OCD who displayed signs of
depression, etc.

Psychology in itself is more subjective than science. Just take any intro to psych course and you'll see that a lot of of the findings are based more on a psychologist's opinions and bias than fact.

My own psychology textbook had anti-gun statements in it when it had nothing to do with the material. You really want them to tell us who can purchase a firearm?
I am talking about mentally sickness to the point where those people are a threat to others and have to be remove from general population, per se. for everyone's safety.
And how exactly do you determine who is mentally sick like that, especially with what I said above? Heck, according to some psychologists, anyone who has a general interest in firearms displays some sort of mental sickness. A few of them might even suggest that I'm more of a threat to others since I own a firearm.
No one has a mission to take away others freedom under the constitution,
This is a total conflict with what you've said. You want to deny handgun purchases by those who MIGHT harm you, but haven't yet. You're taking away someone's freedom because they MIGHT harm you.

If you're going to start down that route, why stop at mental patients? I mean, are you going to deny Rights to other groups of people who statistically will cause more crimes? Are you going to deny them their rights because they MIGHT do something as well? That's the road you're taking and once you get on that road, there's no stopping.
but we are not living in a utopia world where everything is roses.
We'd be living pretty close to a utopia if the Constitution and the Bill of Rights was followed to the letter and if the government would quit strangling our economy.

You shouldn't think that laws would prevent someone who's dead set on doing something. Let's say that a mental database was in place and Cho couldn't buy his Glock. What makes you think he wouldn't just steal a gun or use pipe bombs with short fuses?

Instead of focusing on who CANNOT have a firearm, you need to focus on who CAN have a firearm. Massacres like at VT could have been stopped by a well-placed shot from a good guy with a firearm.

(edited for 10 year old daughter rule. :smile: GH)
Last edited by Geister on Fri Apr 20, 2007 4:54 pm, edited 3 times in total.
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