Breaking The Gun Control Stalemate (Article)

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Breaking The Gun Control Stalemate (Article)

#1

Post by carlson1 »

I know this is just one of a thousand of articles.

http://online.wsj.com/article/SB1000142 ... lenews_wsj" onclick="window.open(this.href);return false;
Neither proposal will accomplish much—except to alienate the other side. Those in favor of gun rights feel that gun-control advocates are using the deranged actions of a few as a pretext to erode the right to bear arms. Because crimes committed with assault weapons are rare, they correctly note that such bans will have little or no impact on crime.

Gun-control advocates, meanwhile, are completely frustrated with Congress's unwillingness to strengthen gun laws, despite the mounting body count over the years. For them, an assault-weapons ban is a first step toward bringing some rationality to this country's gun policy.
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Re: Breaking The Gun Control Stalemate (Article)

#2

Post by Heartland Patriot »

And of course, the problem I have with the article is who gets to decide that a person isn't mentally fit to purchase or own firearms? Will just any comment about a person get them put on a "list"? Are bureaucrats going to be the ones to decide, instead of mental health professionals? How would a person go about getting removed from the list? Would it be possible for people who are actually mentally unstable and dangerous to evade being on the list? It always sounds so good on the surface, until the IMPLEMENTATION of the idea is brought about...then, it often doesn't sound so good because that is where the politics come in. Better reporting of those who are indeed mentally ill isn't a bad thing in the least, but it must be done correctly. The world is a dangerous place. It can break your heart in an instant. NO ONE can guarantee anyone else's safety. We can only pray to God to guide us, or wish for good fortune, as one's beliefs, or lack of, dictate...and we can try and be prepared.
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Re: Breaking The Gun Control Stalemate (Article)

#3

Post by carlson1 »

Heartland Patriot wrote:NO ONE can guarantee anyone else's safety. We can only pray to God to guide us, or wish for good fortune, as one's beliefs, or lack of, dictate...and we can try and be prepared.
:iagree: 100%
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Re: Breaking The Gun Control Stalemate (Article)

#4

Post by terryg »

Actually, I thought it was pretty balanced article overall.
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Re: Breaking The Gun Control Stalemate (Article)

#5

Post by The Annoyed Man »

terryg wrote:Actually, I thought it was pretty balanced article overall.
It could have been worse, but I found this part to reveal a sense of the author's views:
Gun-control advocates, meanwhile, are completely frustrated with Congress's unwillingness to strengthen gun laws, despite the mounting body count over the years. For them, an assault-weapons ban is a first step toward bringing some rationality to this country's gun policy.
The implication, of course, is that the author believes the laws are weak. But there isn't a gun-grabber alive that would accept the existing level of restrictions on guns to be applied to their speech rights, and yet, that is what we, the gun-owning public, put up with in order to exercise an enumerated Constitutional right which includes the words "shall not be infringed." That is the ONLY amendment in the entire bill of rights that contains those words, and yet it is already very much infringed, and gun grabbers want to make that infringement downright draconian.
If the author was deliberately without bias, he would have phrased it this way:
Gun-control advocates, meanwhile, are completely frustrated with Congress's unwillingness to make gun laws more restrictive, despite the shooting tragedies over the years. For them, an assault-weapons ban is a first step toward getting guns out of the hands of citizens.
However, a TRUTHFUL author would have written it this way:
Gun-control advocates, meanwhile, are completely frustrated with Congress's unwillingness to trample the 2nd Amendment, even in the face of a complete breakdown of our mental healthcare system over the years. For them, an assault-weapons ban is a first step toward establishing a police state where they can force their policies on a defenseless populace.
“Hard times create strong men. Strong men create good times. Good times create weak men. And, weak men create hard times.”

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Re: Breaking The Gun Control Stalemate (Article)

#6

Post by XinTX »

There won't be a real 'discussion' on guns in the US until we can have an intellectually honest discussion. And we haven't been able to have one on this subject in decades (at least), it not the last century. It needs to start with the fact that the 2A is in the Constitution NOT to guarantee us a 'right' to shoot squirrels, but as a bulwark against tyrrany. The entire framing of the Constitition was toward that end. If resistance against a tyrranical government by speaking truth (1A) didn't work, they tyrant wouldn't push too far due to the very real check of armed resistance. But we as a nation have forgotten that. And NO, I'm not calling for some sort of insurrection, just pointing out the origins and purpose of 2A. It is rooted in the events in Concord. There is no reference to 'legitimate sporting purpose' in 2A. Heck, back in the Colonial era a lot of towns had a canon. The 'government' didn't own them. They were frequently bought by the townspeople who chipped in to get one in order to deter attacks on the town.

And I doubt anyone here believes that if the antis get some of their so-called 'reasonable restrictions' on guns that they'll be happy and go away. Ain't gonna happen. If you give them EVERYTHING they want, then when the next incident happens (and it will) they'll say they didn't go far enough and want more, until they achieve their goal of a complete ban.

And I also have trouble now saying this should be in the hands of 'mental health care' people. Now that government, via OZeroCare, has essentially taken some level of control over the national health care system, it wouldn't be too hard to add people to 'the list' of people who are probibited from owning firearms.

But the problem with freedom is that sometimes it creates a mess when people make bad choices or do stupid things.
“Public safety is always the first cry of the tyrant.” - Lord Gladstone

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Re: Breaking The Gun Control Stalemate (Article)

#7

Post by RPB »

Heartland Patriot wrote:And of course, the problem I have with the article is who gets to decide that a person isn't mentally fit to purchase or own firearms? Will just any comment about a person get them put on a "list"? Are bureaucrats going to be the ones to decide, instead of mental health professionals? How would a person go about getting removed from the list? Would it be possible for people who are actually mentally unstable and dangerous to evade being on the list? It always sounds so good on the surface, until the IMPLEMENTATION of the idea is brought about...then, it often doesn't sound so good because that is where the politics come in. Better reporting of those who are indeed mentally ill isn't a bad thing in the least, but it must be done correctly. The world is a dangerous place. It can break your heart in an instant. NO ONE can guarantee anyone else's safety. We can only pray to God to guide us, or wish for good fortune, as one's beliefs, or lack of, dictate...and we can try and be prepared.
:iagree:
In many peoples' opinion, anyone with a desire to own a dangerous gun must be mentally unstable, so those go on the list
I'm no lawyer

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Re: Breaking The Gun Control Stalemate (Article)

#8

Post by carlson1 »

Will they put you on the list for having some depression. I counsel several people a week that are having a hard time to job loss, financial pressure, relationship pressure, etc. . ., but who is it that is going to decide that they are able to function in society as a working honest civilian in our society.

Everyone that has mild depression does not need medicine and EVERYONE at one time or another have had periods of depression.
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Re: Breaking The Gun Control Stalemate (Article)

#9

Post by longhorn_92 »

XinTX wrote:There won't be a real 'discussion' on guns in the US until we can have an intellectually honest discussion. And we haven't been able to have one on this subject in decades (at least), it not the last century. It needs to start with the fact that the 2A is in the Constitution NOT to guarantee us a 'right' to shoot squirrels, but as a bulwark against tyrrany. The entire framing of the Constitition was toward that end. If resistance against a tyrranical government by speaking truth (1A) didn't work, they tyrant wouldn't push too far due to the very real check of armed resistance. But we as a nation have forgotten that. And NO, I'm not calling for some sort of insurrection, just pointing out the origins and purpose of 2A. It is rooted in the events in Concord. There is no reference to 'legitimate sporting purpose' in 2A. Heck, back in the Colonial era a lot of towns had a canon. The 'government' didn't own them. They were frequently bought by the townspeople who chipped in to get one in order to deter attacks on the town.

And I doubt anyone here believes that if the antis get some of their so-called 'reasonable restrictions' on guns that they'll be happy and go away. Ain't gonna happen. If you give them EVERYTHING they want, then when the next incident happens (and it will) they'll say they didn't go far enough and want more, until they achieve their goal of a complete ban.

And I also have trouble now saying this should be in the hands of 'mental health care' people. Now that government, via OZeroCare, has essentially taken some level of control over the national health care system, it wouldn't be too hard to add people to 'the list' of people who are probibited from owning firearms.

But the problem with freedom is that sometimes it creates a mess when people make bad choices or do stupid things.

I just had a debate with a liberal family mememer about the right to having "Assault" weapons. I learned real quick the mind of a liberal is focused on emotion rather than fact. I learned that a liberal speaks about having an "open mind" and "tolerance" yet do not really believe in actually behaving that way. They have THEIR viewpoint and their viewpoint is the only correct version. If you do not believe in what they think... you are "Stupid", "Narrow Minded" and a "War Monger".

They do not want to hear facts and truth. They become hostile and angry and then resort to name calling when they can not accept truth. I thought it was only liberal politicians who did that... but I experienced it first hand. She was bad mouthing me for having an Colt M4 and I explained the defifference between a real assault rifle versus the semi-automatic version. I also reminded her that (God Bless their souls) the children at the school were murdered with two handguns while the AR15 wa still in the trunk of the vehicle - this was after she said it was actually ok for people to have handguns, just not ASSAULT weapons...

You are absolutely correct... they want ALL firearms banned not just 'Assault" weapons. They will not stop once they know they can take a portion of our rights away.

I learned that you can not debate with stupid.
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Re: Breaking The Gun Control Stalemate (Article)

#10

Post by chasfm11 »

XinTX wrote:There won't be a real 'discussion' on guns in the US until we can have an intellectually honest discussion. And we haven't been able to have one on this subject in decades (at least), it not the last century. It needs to start with the fact that the 2A is in the Constitution NOT to guarantee us a 'right' to shoot squirrels, but as a bulwark against tyrrany. The entire framing of the Constitition was toward that end. If resistance against a tyrranical government by speaking truth (1A) didn't work, they tyrant wouldn't push too far due to the very real check of armed resistance. But we as a nation have forgotten that. And NO, I'm not calling for some sort of insurrection, just pointing out the origins and purpose of 2A. It is rooted in the events in Concord. There is no reference to 'legitimate sporting purpose' in 2A. Heck, back in the Colonial era a lot of towns had a canon. The 'government' didn't own them. They were frequently bought by the townspeople who chipped in to get one in order to deter attacks on the town.

And I doubt anyone here believes that if the antis get some of their so-called 'reasonable restrictions' on guns that they'll be happy and go away. Ain't gonna happen. If you give them EVERYTHING they want, then when the next incident happens (and it will) they'll say they didn't go far enough and want more, until they achieve their goal of a complete ban.

And I also have trouble now saying this should be in the hands of 'mental health care' people. Now that government, via OZeroCare, has essentially taken some level of control over the national health care system, it wouldn't be too hard to add people to 'the list' of people who are prohibited from owning firearms.

But the problem with freedom is that sometimes it creates a mess when people make bad choices or do stupid things.
The problem is that we haven't had an intellectually honest discussion on any topic in that same period. Environmental Protection? Global Warming/Climate Change? Debt? Taxes? Spending? Drugs? Immigration? You pick a subject and either the facts are manufactured to fit the agenda or the dialogue is pure emotion and laced with divisive rhetoric. For too long, the silent major remained silent and now those who have any reason have been outnumbered by those who refuse to think at all. Politics has always been a dirty business but somehow, it has sunk to new depths of immorality. Without some sort of a moral compass, things like an assault weapons ban, without any sort of basis for it develop a groundswell. The subprime mortgage crisis had its roots in a few people demanding mortgages for those who should not have them and the groundswell pushed it from there. Guns are not an isolated topic at all.
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Re: Breaking The Gun Control Stalemate (Article)

#11

Post by chasfm11 »

To start a real discussion, this would be a good place
http://www.nationalreview.com/articles/ ... john-fund#
National Review Online
December 16, 2012 4:00 P.M.
by John Fund
Almost all of the public-policy discussion about Newtown has focused on a debate over the need for more gun control. In reality, gun control in a country that already has 200 million privately owned firearms is likely to do little to keep weapons out of the hands of criminals. We would be better off debating two taboo subjects — the laws that make it difficult to control people with mental illness and the growing body of evidence that “gun-free” zones, which ban the carrying of firearms by law-abiding individuals, don’t work.
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Re: Breaking The Gun Control Stalemate (Article)

#12

Post by AEA »

Here's another thought.......

If they do end up forcing an AR Ban and it involves a turn in of all existing AR's, we need to get our Congress Critters to force the Govt to pay fair market value to the owner for every one turned in. And we need to make it clear that if our Congress Critters do not get this done, they will be voted out of office at first opportunity.

They think they can just take the guns away without compensation? They think they can offer 50 bux for a 1200+ dollar AR? I don't think so "Timmy".

This needs to be addressed NOW, before it's too late.

I don't wanna give up my AR. And I surely don't want to give it up for nothing considering all the money I have in it.

Why should I? Because of Nut Jobs that propagate the Left's agenda? :mad5

And, besides all this, I am willing to bet that MaoBama is behind all of these shootings anyway. :roll: :banghead:
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Re: Breaking The Gun Control Stalemate (Article)

#13

Post by Rex B »

AEA wrote:Here's another thought.......

If they do end up forcing an AR Ban and it involves a turn in of all existing AR's, we need to get our Congress Critters to force the Govt to pay fair market value to the owner for every one turned in. And we need to make it clear that if our Congress Critters do not get this done, they will be voted out of office at first opportunity.
I don't think we even need to be discussing this as a possibility. It's an opportunity for the camel to get its nose under the tent.
There are over a million ARs in private homes already. They are not going away, and we need to affirm that whenever it comes up, and it will.
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Re: Breaking The Gun Control Stalemate (Article)

#14

Post by VMI77 »

carlson1 wrote:Will they put you on the list for having some depression. I counsel several people a week that are having a hard time to job loss, financial pressure, relationship pressure, etc. . ., but who is it that is going to decide that they are able to function in society as a working honest civilian in our society.

Everyone that has mild depression does not need medicine and EVERYONE at one time or another have had periods of depression.

If such a list is allowed it will be a "no buy list" and like the "no fly list" you will never know why you were put on it and you'll never be able to get your name removed.
Last edited by VMI77 on Mon Dec 17, 2012 10:53 am, edited 1 time in total.
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Re: Breaking The Gun Control Stalemate (Article)

#15

Post by VMI77 »

Rex B wrote:
AEA wrote:Here's another thought.......

If they do end up forcing an AR Ban and it involves a turn in of all existing AR's, we need to get our Congress Critters to force the Govt to pay fair market value to the owner for every one turned in. And we need to make it clear that if our Congress Critters do not get this done, they will be voted out of office at first opportunity.
I don't think we even need to be discussing this as a possibility. It's an opportunity for the camel to get its nose under the tent.
There are over a million ARs in private homes already. They are not going away, and we need to affirm that whenever it comes up, and it will.
No, they need to pay for MUCH more than that.....any confiscation needs to include payment at market rates for every accessory purchased for said rifles --scopes, slings, magazines, ammo, lights, laser sights, new forends, new stocks, gun cases, etc.
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