2 .308 Bolt Guns, 2 Different Visions....

"A pistol is what you use to fight your way back to the rifle you never should have left behind!" Clint Smith, Thunder Ranch

Moderators: carlson1, Keith B

User avatar

Topic author
The Annoyed Man
Senior Member
Posts in topic: 17
Posts: 26852
Joined: Wed Jan 16, 2008 12:59 pm
Location: North Richland Hills, Texas
Contact:

Re: 2 .308 Bolt Guns, 2 Different Visions....

#31

Post by The Annoyed Man »

Liberty wrote:Thanks, You are a lot clearer than the manual. I kept interpeting the manual that one couldn't move the bolt while the safety was in any position other than 2. That didn't make any sense. Your description makes more sense thanks. Glad you are happy with your new purchase. I can't wait until I get one.
Actually, if you're familiar with the Remington 700 safety (or any other brand's safety where "hot" is forward and "safe" is rearward), the Ruger safety will be intuitive for you. The only thing it has that the others don't is that third position, all the way back, which locks the bolt in a closed position with the sear disconnected. I don't really know why the Mauser design adds that third position. I suppose that it is for the transporting of the rifle in the safest manner possible, but I'm not really sure how it would be any safer than the 2nd position.......which is demonstrated by the complete lack of this feature on the safeties of other manufacturers.

Maybe someone with some Mauser knowledge could shed some light on this?
“Hard times create strong men. Strong men create good times. Good times create weak men. And, weak men create hard times.”

― G. Michael Hopf, "Those Who Remain"

#TINVOWOOT

gmckinl
Senior Member
Posts in topic: 1
Posts: 406
Joined: Sat Jul 22, 2006 6:30 pm
Location: DFW-Area

Re: 2 .308 Bolt Guns, 2 Different Visions....

#32

Post by gmckinl »

Locking the bolt closed is IMO near manditory on a hunting rifle. I have personally experienced the sinking feeling of looking down to see the action open and the rifle unloaded after going through heavy brush (a vine must have snagged the handle). My chief complaint about my XL7 is the lack of a three position safety (but what do you expect at that price point).

The Model 70 Winchester is where the three position side swinging safety came from, not Mauser. Take a look at a Mauser 95 or 98, or the 03 Springfield (a very close copy), neither have that style of safety.
NRA Life Member

"The beauty of the second amendment is that it will not be needed until they try to take it." -- Thomas Jefferson
User avatar

Topic author
The Annoyed Man
Senior Member
Posts in topic: 17
Posts: 26852
Joined: Wed Jan 16, 2008 12:59 pm
Location: North Richland Hills, Texas
Contact:

Re: 2 .308 Bolt Guns, 2 Different Visions....

#33

Post by The Annoyed Man »

gmckinl wrote:Locking the bolt closed is IMO near manditory on a hunting rifle. I have personally experienced the sinking feeling of looking down to see the action open and the rifle unloaded after going through heavy brush (a vine must have snagged the handle). My chief complaint about my XL7 is the lack of a three position safety (but what do you expect at that price point).

The Model 70 Winchester is where the three position side swinging safety came from, not Mauser. Take a look at a Mauser 95 or 98, or the 03 Springfield (a very close copy), neither have that style of safety.
Thanks for the clarification of origins. My hunting experience is fairly limited, and I've never had to negotiate heavy brush with my rifle. It just wasn't part of the terrain where I was hunting.
“Hard times create strong men. Strong men create good times. Good times create weak men. And, weak men create hard times.”

― G. Michael Hopf, "Those Who Remain"

#TINVOWOOT

texasmusic
Senior Member
Posts in topic: 2
Posts: 585
Joined: Fri Sep 03, 2010 12:43 pm
Location: Katy

Re: 2 .308 Bolt Guns, 2 Different Visions....

#34

Post by texasmusic »

Savage rifles have this style of safety as well. I use the 1st and 3rd exclusively unless I am only chambering a round or unloading the chambered round. I like the feature but it's not a deal breaker for me.

Basically you get the benefits of the 1911 slide locking safety without having to unlock the trigger while unloading/loading.
Ubi libertas habitat ibi nostra patria est

PBratton
Senior Member
Posts in topic: 1
Posts: 1487
Joined: Mon Feb 16, 2009 7:47 pm
Location: Sugar Land, Texas

Re: 2 .308 Bolt Guns, 2 Different Visions....

#35

Post by PBratton »

threoh8 wrote:
texasmusic wrote:
The Annoyed Man wrote:I don't really know if the "One Rifle" concept can ever be truly answered,
You rarely see guys on the PGA playing with just one club. ;-)
Guys on the PGA seldom encounter fleeting targets of opportunity along the course, and almost never have to consider using a club in self defense.

(Hmmm ... golf might actually be interesting in a "Hogan's Alley" format. Sounds like a good "Off Topic" thread.)

dunno, I saw a golfer poking at an alligator with his putter once. I viewed it simply as thinning the gene pool.
http://www.GeeksFirearms.com NFA dealer.
$25 Transfers in the Sugar Land, Richmond/Rosenburg areas, every 25th transfer I process is free

Active Military, Veterans, Law Enforcement, Fire, EMS receive $15 transfers.

NRA Patron Member, NRA Certified Pistol Instructor, NRA Certified CRSO, Tx LTC Instructor

DocRhino
Junior Member
Posts in topic: 4
Posts: 17
Joined: Tue Dec 20, 2011 2:49 pm

Re: 2 .308 Bolt Guns, 2 Different Visions....

#36

Post by DocRhino »

TAM, you're killing me! I got a deal on a RGS from an FFL I work with that had a buy fall through. The wife agreed.... for Christmas. I promised not to even open the box (the DUMBEST promise EVER!) so I haven't even seen the rifle.

Great review and superlative information. Thanks.

I can't wait...
I believe there are more instances of the abridgement of freedom of the people by gradual and silent encroachments by those in power than by violent and sudden usurpations.
James Madison

bagman45
Banned
Posts in topic: 3
Posts: 349
Joined: Tue Jan 17, 2012 4:20 pm
Location: Plano

Re: 2 .308 Bolt Guns, 2 Different Visions....

#37

Post by bagman45 »

I'm with gmckinl on this; growing up I hunted squirrels with a really old, really cheap single shot handed down from my grandfather. The drill was; load the round into the chamber, close the bolt, pull the really stiff spring-loaded shafety on the back of the bolt backwards and twist to the side to lock the safety. Unfortunatly on this crappy gun, that allowed the bolt to flop open with almost NO resistance. SO, unless I kept my hand holding the bolt closed as I walked through the woods, invariably when it was time to take a shot, I'd mount the rifle only to find the bolt open and round long gone. As was the squirrel while I was fishing around in my front pocket Barney-Fife like trying to dig out another bullet and get it loaded.... Best Christmas I ever had was the year I got my 10-22!

That bolt lock position sounds like a GREAT idea!!
User avatar

Topic author
The Annoyed Man
Senior Member
Posts in topic: 17
Posts: 26852
Joined: Wed Jan 16, 2008 12:59 pm
Location: North Richland Hills, Texas
Contact:

Re: 2 .308 Bolt Guns, 2 Different Visions....

#38

Post by The Annoyed Man »

DocRhino wrote:TAM, you're killing me! I got a deal on a RGS from an FFL I work with that had a buy fall through. The wife agreed.... for Christmas. I promised not to even open the box (the DUMBEST promise EVER!) so I haven't even seen the rifle.

Great review and superlative information. Thanks.

I can't wait...
AAAAAAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAAAAA! Good luck with that one! :mrgreen: Congratulations through. You're going to love it when you finally open it.
“Hard times create strong men. Strong men create good times. Good times create weak men. And, weak men create hard times.”

― G. Michael Hopf, "Those Who Remain"

#TINVOWOOT
User avatar

Topic author
The Annoyed Man
Senior Member
Posts in topic: 17
Posts: 26852
Joined: Wed Jan 16, 2008 12:59 pm
Location: North Richland Hills, Texas
Contact:

Re: 2 .308 Bolt Guns, 2 Different Visions....

#39

Post by The Annoyed Man »

I went back to the range today because I wanted to try a couple of things. First, I used my ballistics software to calculate a table for the Black Hills 175 grain Match, based on a muzzle velocity of 2,550 fps. This is in line with results obtained by Gunblast with two other sniping loads using the same Sierra 175 grain Matchking, both being very similar to the Black Hills ammo (I badly need to buy a chronograph).

Based on that chart, I wanted to see if the height of the bullet impact above point of aim at 50 yards would match the chart. The ballistics chart predicted a height about POA of .7 MOA, or .35", based on a 150 yard zero. However, as you can see from the results in the first two pictures, fall of shot was about 1" above POA, which is more consistent with a 200 yard zero....which I actually prefer. This would yield a 2.3" apogee at 125 yards, and a 9.35" drop at 300 yards, and that makes anything inside of 300 yards fall within an 11" elevation deviation. Perfect.

Anyway, I also wanted to see if 5X magnification (the maximum zoom in my scout scope) would allow me to shoot smaller groups more easily. I'm not trying to make a match rifle out of this gun, but I want to know with confidence that if I place the red dot on a target at 200 yards, the bullet will impact within a small enough deviation from POA as to be reliable for hunting accuracy.

This test also allowed me (since I could see better what I was doing) to get a much more detailed picture of how the barrel performs as it heats up. Here's what I came up with......

First off, the rifle was very reliable with a cold-bore shot. POI for a cold-bore shot was never more than an inch, usually less, from POA. That was comforting.

Next, the rifle repeatedly demonstrated that it will shoot a three shot string with relative accuracy, and then the group will begin to open up considerably. I took some snapshots with my cellphone camera which I've attached below and which will illustrate this better than I can write it:

In this 4 round group, the first three came in just at or a little over .5", and the 4th was a flyer. This trend would be repeated over and over again.
Image

Ditto with this 6 round group. The first three were respectable, and then the wheels came off the bus.
Image

On this target, I fired three rounds, then there was a cease-fire. After the range was hot again, I fired 8 more rounds which measured roughly 1.25"
Image

In this last image, I just burned through 20 rounds, all of which landed within about 2". The target paster is a 3" circle.
Image

So all of this is to say that while this is definitely not a match rifle, it is certainly a competent brush gun with "practical accuracy," and that's exactly what I bought it for. It will probably shoot better for someone with sharper eyesight than mine, but I'm happy with my own results.
“Hard times create strong men. Strong men create good times. Good times create weak men. And, weak men create hard times.”

― G. Michael Hopf, "Those Who Remain"

#TINVOWOOT

DocRhino
Junior Member
Posts in topic: 4
Posts: 17
Joined: Tue Dec 20, 2011 2:49 pm

Re: 2 .308 Bolt Guns, 2 Different Visions....

#40

Post by DocRhino »

Have I mentioned YOU'RE KILLIN' ME HERE! :lol:

One question: The pictures on your post, were those targets set at 50 yards or 100?
I believe there are more instances of the abridgement of freedom of the people by gradual and silent encroachments by those in power than by violent and sudden usurpations.
James Madison
User avatar

Topic author
The Annoyed Man
Senior Member
Posts in topic: 17
Posts: 26852
Joined: Wed Jan 16, 2008 12:59 pm
Location: North Richland Hills, Texas
Contact:

Re: 2 .308 Bolt Guns, 2 Different Visions....

#41

Post by The Annoyed Man »

DocRhino wrote:Have I mentioned YOU'RE KILLIN' ME HERE! :lol:

One question: The pictures on your post, were those targets set at 50 yards or 100?
The pics in that last post were set at 50 yards. My first range trip was shot at 100 yards, but I did not take any pictures. I chose 50 yards this time quite deliberately for the two reasons mentioned previously: 1) I can't see the target well enough at 100 yards on 5X to be able to tell where my shots are hitting relative to one another; and 2) I wanted to see if the height of POI above POA at 50 yards matched what my ballistics table said it would be. (At some point, I' going to find a place I can shoot where I can measure the POI at 250-300 yards, to see if that matches what the ballistics table predicts.)

When I shot it at 100 yards, I averaged around 2" for a four shot string shooting the 165 grain Federal Fusion....and predictably, the 4th shot is the one that always opened the group up.

But even at 50 yards, 5X is not enough magnification for me to shoot at my best, which when combined with the less-than-match accuracy of this rifle makes it very unlikely that I could match that which I take for granted in my Remington or my AR10. The Remington has 4.5-14x scope, and I usually crank it all the way up at 100 yards. The AR10 has a 5-20x scope, and I try to shoot it at 15x.........so magnification is definitely one of the accuracy limiting factors for me with this rifle. I've just spent $599 on the scope, not to mention the cost of the rings, so I'm not likely to change it out.....and for my intended purpose, which is for a practical hunting/truck gun rifle, this scope is sufficient. I am pretty confident that I could take an average sized adult hog at 200 yards with it......if I can see the hog. Eyesight is really the issue, and it really boils down to philosophy of use.

On my AR carbine, I have a Burris 536 reflex sight which has a pretty cool reticle with a BDC calibrated to take a 62 grain penetrator all the way out to 600 yards. Well, I can't see anything at 600 yards, so that is not really within my practical range of usage. However, with a "Santos Improved Battlesight Zero" at 50 yards (http://aesirtraining.com/home/rifle-zero/), POI is never more than 2" above or below POA all the way out to 250 yards. This means that, all other things being equal, and there being no crosswinds or other inputs to bend the trajectory, all I have to do is put my center dot on the POA, without using holdover, and that bullet will never be more than 2" high or 2" low all the way out to 250 yards. That means that you don't have to treat each shot like you're a trained sniper. Instead, you aim, and you shoot, and you have a high probability of scoring good hits.

That is exactly the philosophy of use I am pursuing with this Ruger. I already have two extraordinarily accurate precision rifles. I wanted this one to be set up for use more like my AR carbine in that I can be certain of scoring a good hit within a reasonable distance simply by placing that red dot on the target and squeezing the trigger, and not having to do any calculations. So with a 175 grain Matchking and a 200 yard zero, POI will never be more than 2.3" high (@ 125 yards) or 3.7" low all the way out to 250 yards. That's a 6" vertical spread over the same distance as opposed to the 4" vertical spread of the flatter shooting 5.56 round, but it is still a fairly small amount of drop, making this a point and shoot hunter with that bullet, at that distance. This rifle seems to perform best with heavier bullets. I have a box full of 180 grain SSTs I'd like to work up a load with and see how that performs in this rifle, simply because that is a better choice for a hunting bullet and that is the primary purpose for this rifle. I've already worked up a precision load for my other bolt rifle, and so now I'm going to work up a good "working hunting rifle" load for this rifle.

A methodical hunter will, it possible, pre-range the distances to various objects and/or terrain features around the property he's hunting in, so that he can have a quick reference to how far away an animal is from his position by comparing that animal's position relative to the pre-ranged objects. And then, based on that, he or she will have a sense of what their bullet is going to do over those distances. Whatever I can do to simplify that process will increase my probability of hunting success.

Certainly it is fun to think of the RGS as a TEOTWAWKI rifle, but that is not my primary intent here. I just wanted a light and handy, carbine length .30 caliber bolt action rifle with reasonable accuracy, quick to get on target, and enough grunt to take whatever I'm likely to shoot with it............including a zombie hippie if necessary.
:mrgreen:
“Hard times create strong men. Strong men create good times. Good times create weak men. And, weak men create hard times.”

― G. Michael Hopf, "Those Who Remain"

#TINVOWOOT

DocRhino
Junior Member
Posts in topic: 4
Posts: 17
Joined: Tue Dec 20, 2011 2:49 pm

Re: 2 .308 Bolt Guns, 2 Different Visions....

#42

Post by DocRhino »

It has been my experience that a man's intellect can be reliably judged by the extent to which he agrees with me. TAM, that makes you brilliant! :tiphat:

The reasoning articulated above is _exactly_ why I have been interested in the RGS. I've never been a 'rifle guy'. My addiction has been bird hunting and handguns. The RGS has been my desired point of entry into rifles. (Since my RGS acquisition, I've expanded my centerfire rifle collection. I'll start a topic on that.) The Santos Zero article was of particular interest, especially given an article by Ed Head of Gunsite in the October Shooting Illustrated. In that article, in contravention to the Santos Zero, Mr. Head argues for a 25 yard zero for .223 and .308 rifles. I was paying attention to his article because 1) it was well argued 2) he was using a GSR and a SR556, both with 16.5 inch barrels AND both of which I own and 3) the practically identical point of impact for both rounds out to 300 yards in the loads he referenced. I don't see the article on-line. I guess I'll just have to get out to Elm Fork and test the 25 yard zero for 2" high at 100 years with both guns. He used Hornady 165gr Superformance and Hornady 75gr for his examples. From the article he lists the delta from line of sight for .308 @ the muzzle, 25 yards, 50 yards, 100 yards, 200 yards and 300 yards as:
-1.5, 0.0, +1.0, +2.1, 0.0, -9.0
For the .223,
-2.5, 0.0, +0.5, +2.0, 0.0, -9.8
Again, practical. Again, I'll have to test it, but having essentially the same hold for both rifles out to 300 yards is very appealing.

As far as optics, the scope that will be mounted is still in question for my rifle but the swfa scope on yours is very tempting. Thanks for the excellent information.

Finally, for either of the zero theories above, the obligatory peace sign medallion on zombie hippies will be an excellent point of aim when TEOTWAWKI is upon us.
I believe there are more instances of the abridgement of freedom of the people by gradual and silent encroachments by those in power than by violent and sudden usurpations.
James Madison
User avatar

AdioSS
Senior Member
Posts in topic: 1
Posts: 512
Joined: Mon Feb 22, 2010 7:02 am
Location: 75707

Re: 2 .308 Bolt Guns, 2 Different Visions....

#43

Post by AdioSS »

TAM Your posts have got me thinking about what to do with my short 16.5" barrel .308 VEPR. It's not a bolt gun & probably isn't anywhere near as accurate as your gun, but it is still probably more accurate than me. I ordered it last week & picked it up today. Don't have a scope for it yet though. I rally don't know much about scopes at all.

Sangiovese
Senior Member
Posts in topic: 2
Posts: 415
Joined: Tue Jul 10, 2007 10:34 pm
Location: Fort Worth

Re: 2 .308 Bolt Guns, 2 Different Visions....

#44

Post by Sangiovese »

TAM is singlehandedly raising Ruger's stock value :lol:

I picked up a Ruger Gunsite Scout at the Lewisville gun show this weekend. I'd been wanting one for a while and TAM's review pushed me over the edge. I haven't taken it to the range yet, but it sure does feel good on my shoulder. After finals I'm going to have to head out to Elm Fork and see how she shoots.

Not sure what I'm going to do for optics yet. I'm leaning toward an eotech XPS-2 (love it on my AR15) but am also wondering if a long eye relief 1-4x or similar might be a better choice. My eyes aren't all that young and reaching out beyond 100 yards without magnification isn't feasible.
NRA Endowment Member. Texas LTC Instructor. NRA certified Pistol & Home Firearm Safety Instructor - Range Safety Officer

Any comments about legal matters are general in nature and are not legal advice. Nothing posted on this forum is intended to establish an attorney-client relationship.
User avatar

Topic author
The Annoyed Man
Senior Member
Posts in topic: 17
Posts: 26852
Joined: Wed Jan 16, 2008 12:59 pm
Location: North Richland Hills, Texas
Contact:

Re: 2 .308 Bolt Guns, 2 Different Visions....

#45

Post by The Annoyed Man »

Sangiovese wrote:Not sure what I'm going to do for optics yet. I'm leaning toward an eotech XPS-2 (love it on my AR15) but am also wondering if a long eye relief 1-4x or similar might be a better choice. My eyes aren't all that young and reaching out beyond 100 yards without magnification isn't feasible.
I have an EOTech that I wouldn't mind using if it weren't for the fact that I'm not able to zero it beyond about 25 yards, simply because I can't see clearly beyond about that.

DocRhino, one thing that may change your POI at whatever range is the height of the scope bore over the rifle bore. On the SR556 it is most likely the same as on any other AR, which is going to be roughly 2"—a function of the 0º angle of the stock relative to the action. Because the GSR's stock angle drops a bit relative to the receiver, the height of the scope over the bore on the GSR is lower than that 2".....unless you decide to mount a scope with a 50mm objective lens in the traditional position, which will require higher rings. It's not likely to make much of a difference close up, but it can make a significant difference further out. That said, the reticle in the Leupold VX-III mounted on the Remington shown in the OP is regulated for both .223 and .308 bullets and will yield the same bullet drops for either calibers out to 500 yards. I've never tested that to confirm it.

Do you by any chance have a link to that particular Shooting Illustrated article? I tried to find it but couldn't.
“Hard times create strong men. Strong men create good times. Good times create weak men. And, weak men create hard times.”

― G. Michael Hopf, "Those Who Remain"

#TINVOWOOT
Post Reply

Return to “Rifles & Shotguns”