Under 21 Question

[gregthehand]

I just go back to my previous statement of getting a normal 12 gauge shotgun. Keep it in arms length, and you will probably be able to get it fast enough to ward off an attacker. You can also carry pepper spray that will be more readily available and may buy you some time. Don't go out and buy a big freakin' SL-20 flashlight and then beat up a bunch of stuff with it so it looks like a club, and then tell everyone it can be used as one. Anything, including flashlights, that you intend to use as a club, will be club once you air that intention to a peace officer. I have found ASPs on people before and not arrested them for it though just because I personally feel that the whole club thing is a really stupid law. However I was very "liberal" if you will in arresting people, because I just thought so many laws we have on the books are stupid and it was my discretion. I however was in the minority and have no more desire to work in law enforcement, so don't go around carrying a weapon your not supposed to have!

[KBCraig]

A machete or short Samurai sword in its scabbard stuck between the seats is a very effective weapon for carrying in your car or truck.

I can pretty well assure you that if you are stopped in my city, and an officer finds you with either of these illegal weapons, they will be confiscated. Most officers that I know (in my department and others) would probably arrest you, have your vehicle towed, and take you to jail.

The law is the same for unlicensed carry of handguns in the car as it is for "illegal knives" and clubs: PC 46.02 makes it a crime to have one on or about your person, and PC 46.15(3) says that 46.02 does not apply to someone who is traveling. The 46.15(i) presumption applies to "illegal knives" and clubs just the same as it does handguns.

Kevin

[txinvestigator]

A machete or short Samurai sword in its scabbard stuck between the seats is a very effective weapon for carrying in your car or truck.

I can pretty well assure you that if you are stopped in my city, and an officer finds you with either of these illegal weapons, they will be confiscated. Most officers that I know (in my department and others) would probably arrest you, have your vehicle towed, and take you to jail.

The law is the same for unlicensed carry of handguns in the car as it is for "illegal knives" and clubs: PC 46.02 makes it a crime to have one on or about your person, and PC 46.15(3) says that 46.02 does not apply to someone who is traveling. The 46.15(i) presumption applies to "illegal knives" and clubs just the same as it does handguns.

Kevin

I don't believe that was the intent of the law, and that is certainly not how it is being applied;

(i) [ For purposes of Subsection (b)(3), a person is presumed to be traveling if the person is:
(1) in a private motor vehicle;
(2) not otherwise engaged in criminal activity, other than a Class C misdemeanor that is a violation of a law or ordinance regulating traffic;
(3) not otherwise prohibited by law from possessing a firearm;
(4) not a member of a criminal street gang, as defined by Section 71.01; and
(5) not carrying a handgun in plain view.

I realize it appears logically to make illegal knives and clubs legal, but the reality is it does not.

[KBCraig]

Even if you ignore 46.15(i) ("presumed to be traveling"), 46.15(b)(3) says that 46.02 ("unlawfully carrying a weapon") does not apply if a person is traveling.

Section 46.02 applies equally to handguns, illegal knives, and clubs. So does the non-applicability given under 46.15. We could argue about the 46.15(i) "presumption" applying to illegal knives or clubs, but the law as written does not apply only to handguns. I'd give a decent lawyer good odds at beating a charge of UCW over a knife or club in a car.

Kevin

[txinvestigator]

Even if you ignore 46.15(i) ("presumed to be traveling"), 46.15(b)(3) says that 46.02 ("unlawfully carrying a weapon") does not apply if a person is traveling.

Section 46.02 applies equally to handguns, illegal knives, and clubs. So does the non-applicability given under 46.15. We could argue about the 46.15(i) "presumption" applying to illegal knives or clubs, but the law as written does not apply only to handguns. I'd give a decent lawyer good odds at beating a charge of UCW over a knife or club in a car.

Kevin

I agree with your logic. However, I don't think it plays out that way on the street.

[CHL/LEO]

I'd give a decent lawyer good odds at beating a charge of UCW over a knife or club in a car.

Everyone has to pick their battles and so be it. I personally don't recommend that you take this path in certain jurisdictions. Just like people carrying a concealed weapon without a CHL while they are traveling will have no problem in certain areas of Texas, or by certain LEOs, there are other areas where you're going to be in a world of trouble and out a lot of money.

I'm not here to tell you how a court might rule on your interpretation of this law, I'm only tring to share with you how lot's of LEOs will interpret it AND enforce it. Until there is case law (appeal court level) on this matter, or the AG issues a legal opinion on it, it is really up to the discretion of the local LEOs and prosecutors as to how one is going to be handled.

Again, you pick your battles but this is one that could not only cost you lots of money but also a criminal conviction - which by the way would pretty well bring an end to ever obtaining a CHL.

[seamusTX]

I personally don't recommend that you take this path in certain jurisdictions.

I agree. At a minimum, it could cost thousands of dollars. And judges are not not all legal scholars. You might be found guilty despite having the law on your side.

- Jim

[KBCraig]

I agree with your logic. However, I don't think it plays out that way on the street.

I don't doubt that -- and that's a shame.

CHL/LEO, you don't have to worry about me being a test case on this. I don't carry a club, nor a knife other than a small pen knife.

About April 1992, a Henderson PD officer threatened to arrest my then-wife for a knife in the car, but it was just an intimidation tactic. It was a 5" fixed blade in the sheath, in the door pocket. He put on his "tough guy" voice and said, "That's a concealed weapon, and I could take you to jail right now!" That's an exact quote, by the way. For starters, he had no idea whether the blade was over 5.5"; even if it had been an "illegal knife", concealed or not wouldn't matter.

They were running a speed trap, with at least four officers. She was driving well below the speed limit (we were being passed by other cars), and we were looking carefully for highway signs because we'd never been through there before. An officer stepped into the street and flagged us over. There were three or four other drivers all stopped there, and while it might be expected for drivers to protest their innocence, the fact that the ticketing officer flat-out lied and wrote her up for 14 over (when she was driving about 10 under), makes me believe the other drivers were innocent, too.

Given the option of paying or trudging back 100+ miles to contest it in a town where the police obviously had a history of success with such tactics, she paid the ticket.

In such towns, I have no doubt you'd take the ride.

Kevin

[switch]

The renewal training certificate is only good for 6 months, the certificate for an initial class is good for 2 years.

There is no requirement that it be signed/notarized after you are 21.

Although DPS recommends you wait until you are 21, I see no reason to. Why not submit all the documents 4 months before your 21st birthday. They will NOT issue a license before you turn 21 but should right after. (Might want to write in an explanation on the notarized statements that you are NOT 21 today but will be on XX/YY/19xx.)

Hey Rooster,

Just FYI if ya didn't know; you can take the CHL class up to 6 months (last I heard) before you turn 21 so that all you have to do when you turn 21 is get your instructor to sign it and notarize it and you can turn the paperwork in without having to wait.


-Laurence