Egyptian Terrorists Attack US on 9/11

[Jumping Frog]

I leave it to our resident legal scholars to consider this matter in that context and give us their opinion as to whether perhaps, if the Guardian's quote proves true and provable, Mr. Nakoula, and perhaps others, might be prosecuted by some appropriate jurisdiction, alleging the commission of a serious crime, ranging perhaps from conspiracy to first degree murder.

To hopefully avoid backlash from certain quarters, I do not make any suggestion that the consequences of Mr. Nakoula's film were either rational or forgivable -- I suggest only that they were arguably reasonably predictable. I would suggest, however, that the rightness or wrongness of the consequences is irrelevant to the question of whether or not he might be liable for criminal conduct.

The question at hand is childishly absurdly simple. Will we allow Muslim mobs to determine the content of our Bill of Rights? Will we decide that as Americans, we have a right to freedom of speech, without considering the "global opinion" of a band of savages who want us to bow down to their stone god and its views on women, freedom and blasphemy, or will we decide that as Post-Americans we must consider the opinions of the "international community" and accept that freedom of speech is no longer feasible in a connected world?

Personally, I don't want to be considerate, I'd rather support the peculiar institution of allowing as many offensive opinions as can be found in a country of a few hundred million to proliferate. I also believe every person has the right to bray those opinions as he pleases, and that such a society of discordant arguments, where everyone is entitled to be right or wrong, ignorant or intelligent, bigoted or tolerant, crazy or sane, good or evil, without ever being sure which is which because it's the process of yelling at each other that allows us to discover we are actually the best society. Call me a jingoistic American exceptionalist.

Americanism is a nation of people arguing with each other, without killing each other, and Post-Americanism, as we have just witnessed, is the people who are willing to kill winning the argument by default.

That is our choice. We can choose to be ruled by savages brandishing weapons or by the Bill of Rights. But let's not pretend that the rule of Obama or Ban Ki-moon is anything more than the rule of savages by proxy. It doesn't much matter whether the savages are here pointing a gun at our heads or if Obama or some civil rights commission is doing their dirty work for them; our choice is clear. We can either be ruled by our laws or by the Koran.

[57Coastie]

One of us is having an english fail... Is "What has been revealed in our holy Quran about the those who Mock our Prophet or Islam in general." supposed to be a question, or is it an incomplete statement?

Also, I'm having trouble understanding your translation, but I'm not entirely sure why... In the first part, (94), who is we, and who is thee? Would you mind paraphrasing it in more modern english?

Beiruty,

I believe the post I quote above clearly shows that those persons who have dominated this thread know absolutely nothing about that with which they pretend to know everything. They do not understand, they do not wish to understand, they refuse to understand, and they will never understand. They have their fingers in their ears. Their answer to all who disagree with them is to kill. Your translation of your holy Quran, while subtle, is quite accurate and understandable.

People like this, as they attempt to seize power in Washington, would guarantee that this horrible world situation will endure. They are playing into the hands of their enemies. Well-spoken demagogues keep them marching along behind their flag and their cross into Armageddon.

Confirmed Liberal that I am, I do not agree with everything you say elsewhere here on this forum, but as to this particular issue I do.

It is hopeless. I cannot beat my head against the wall here any more and increase my frustrations daily, and I must leave you to face them almost alone. You are not only wise, but you are brave.

Jim

[J Wilson]

Finally, the Administration committed to spend $1 billion to help relieve the Egyptian government of their debt obligations. The timing of this commitment could not come at a worse time. I want to assure you that if the Administration decides to move forward, I have the ability to stop it when I am notified.

If they bite the hand that feeds them, only an idiot would keep feeding them.

I think the Obama administration needs a theme song.

From the Halls of Montezuma,
To the shores of Tripoli,
We will arm our country's enemies
And give them free money.

Last to fight for right and freedom
And first to fight for what's obscene.
Clinton, Holder and Obama?
Time to wipe the whole slate clean.

Sir,
Following forum rules,I only have one thing to say to you:
SEMPER FI
Proud former Sgt.USMC

[Beiruty]

Have you all considered for a sec the content of the said movie is a total lie, a slander. I have. The slander, if it is such (I have not seen it), does not justify for even one second the murders and rioting that followed. Artists in the U.S. have depicted the cross of Jesus immersed in urine, movies in which Jesus has carnal relations with a prostitute, not to mention other abominations. Yes, there were protests, but they were completely non-violent, and somehow, no buildings were burned, nobody was murdered for it, and the "artists" in question slept soundly in their beds at night. Why? Because we are not a barbarous and murderous people. Neither, for that matter, are most Muslims. But unfortunately, the reality is that there are some people who self-identify as Muslims who are members of that group which Michael Medved described as ROPO ("religion of perpetual outrage" see my previous post), and they are clearly insane......because a sane person does not commit murder over an insulting movie.

BTW, Extremists picked 9/11 11th anniversary to attack and the movie-cause was irrelevant. Inflaming the feelings of the mass of Muslims resulted in a predictable outcome as stated above. Until THIS reply, I have not addressed the video. You want my opinion? I think it was dumber than a bag of hammers, and I think the idiot who published it ought to be shunned because he is an unwise dirtbag, but that is all I think. He did not commit a crime, because offending someone is not a crime. If it were, then the above mentioned "artists" would all be in jail, and they clearly are not. However, the murderers who killed because they were offended clearly DID commit a crime. Also, if you reread my previous posts, you'll see that I did not address the timing of the recent attacks. My references were to the original event itself.

TAM, I see the difference, however justifying collateral damage, the death of civilians is problematic. Why, Because Terrorists are claiming the same principle, that in-order to harm US, killing US civilians as matter of collateral damage is acceptable. BTW, Terrorists even claim that killing innocent Muslims as collateral-damage is acceptable under the same principle. Terrorists or Extremists who call themselves Muslims would target Muslims who do not agree with their sick and deviant mentality first. I'm not justifying civilian deaths; I'm merely point out that they are a fact of war. You're conversing with someone whose mother survived a nazi invasion, occupation, and a corresponding Allied invasion, full scale all out world war which raged back and forth across the city in which she lived.....not to diminish the tragedies of Lebanon, but a war that was MUCH more devastating and killed MANY more civilians than died in Lebanon. War is absolute heck. In WW2, civilians died in the millions as "collateral" casualties. I am not saying it is OK. I AM saying it is a fact of war. If I were a terrorist or resistance fighter, I would not bring the war home to my family. That is an act of indecency. Why would I not do that? I would not do it precisely because I would not want to risk that my wife and children would be killed by the missile aimed at me. "Men" (and I use quote marks deliberately) who drag their families into harm's way are no kind of man at all. It is the act of an immoral coward. Do I want their families to die? No, of course not. But I DO want the terrorist to die. Men who hide behind the skirts of their women are contemptible. It is easy to criticize without offering alternative solutions. In my original post where I mentioned the threat to women and children, it is NOT that I think they are legitimate targets, it is that I think that when they are collaterally killed in pursuit of a terrorist, the moral responsibility for that rests on the terrorist's shoulders........in the same way that if you and I rob a bank together and get in a gunfight with police, the deaths of any civilians caught in the crossfire is on OUR shoulders, and not on the police, regardless of who pulled the trigger.....because if there had been no bank robbery, there would be no civilian deaths. By extension, if there were no terrorism, there would be no pursuit of terrorists; and if there were no pursuit of terrorists, there would be no collateral killing of their families. The alternative is to simply do nothing and just absorb the terrorist attacks and move on. That's an unrealistic expectation.

Answers in red above....

TAM,

1) Do not use red for replies, please use blue.
2) In Civil war, Civilian damage and massacre, kidnapping and killing for fun, are more devastating than just collateral damage. I survived my first 26 years of life in Beirut Lebanon. That period, was up to 1994, four yrs after the so called the end of Lebanese Civil war, 1974-1990. A total of 17 yrs, of mayhem and ridiculous killing. In one incident out of many, my whole family was inside our apartment, the top-most floor, when 10-12 rds of 82mm mortar rounds fell on our apartment. By grace of our Creator, Allah. none of us, had single physical scratch. Ever lasing psychological effect lives with us till date. In 1982 invasion of Beirut by Israeli forces, After the cession of hostilities, I came to find on my bed a 1/2 of 155mm shell a gift from the invaders forces, the Israelis. I think anyone at my age at that time 14 would not harbor good feelings for those who live south the border.

War would only make more enemies and not friends.

3) The cause and effect story and who started what that lead to more violence and death is too problematic. Cause, for the extremists, US has only 3 goals in the Middle-East
A) Oil
B) Protecting Israel, an occupier of Arab land and a colony-state since British Occupation of Palestine after 1918.
C) US is only interfering and supporting oppressive regimes in the ME.


US foreign policy is by design is to serve the US interests first at the cost of others.

[Beiruty]

The following is short-English translation (Not recommended) of what has been revealed in our holy book Al-Quran about the those who mock our Prophet or Islam in general. And, how our Prophet was bothered and silently harmed by their mocking. And, what our Prophet Muhammad was ordered to do.

What it means in English, (Not sure if the translation is accurate as I am not versed with so called Bible-like Language and terms when translating Arabic):
Surat, Al-Hajjar, verse 95 to verse 99.

Lo ! We are sufficent for thee against the scoffers, (95) Who set some other god along with Allah. But they will come to know. (96) Well know We that thy bosom is times oppressed by what they say, (97) But hymn the praise of thy Lord, and be of those who make prostration (unto Him). (98) And serve thy Lord till the Inevitable cometh unto thee. (99)

My understanding translated to English
95) Allah is addressing Prophet Muhammad, Peace be upon him: Allah will un-burden our Prophet Muhammad from those (scoffers) who mock the Prophet, Islam and Muslims.
96) Those who attribute to Allah, another partner in Godhood. They will know [what cometh to them in punishment; and, that they were wrong; and, they were the aggressors, the offenders]
97) Allah is addressing Prophet Muhammad, Peace be upon him: Allah knows that you, Muhammad, your are silently bothered, and harmed with what they (the scoffers) are saying and you are keeping it to yourself [Not reacting in violent way].
98) Praise Allah, and do more prayers, be of those who make prostration for Allah [Worship Allah more]
99) And, worship your Lord [Allah] till you die.

[mamabearCali]

Beiruity, positing one quote the Koran does not negate what thousands of Muslim men and women are screaming at the top of their lungs. I don't want to make this about Islam....it is only about that marginally. You and I could go round and round posting verses from the Koran,the bible and we would end up here again just both of us more irritated. These people believe they are acting on their faith, whether or not they are duped and believing a distorted version of Islam, I don't know.

Additionally, while individual members of any and every religion can do terrible things and be flat out insane. When a Christian goes round the bend, and off the reservation (murdering tillerman /westboro crazies) Christians very quickly denounce then and do not offer excuses for what they have done. Even you have offered excuses for these people's ridiculous behavior (the British and the Wahhabis/ a slanderous film inciting them to murder--as if words are an excuse to murder).

On Islam proper. We don't discuss religions here as a matter of course. So I will only give my thoughts on the last ten years of Islam/western interaction. I am a generous person by nature, idealist, and even at 32 years old a bit naive. I have wanted to believe that as a whole Islam could be a peaceful religion. World events over the past few years, months, and days, are disabusing me of that hope. I still cling to the small hope that perhaps these idiots at the embassies are a vocal minority, and moderates are the rule not the exception. Time will tell on that one.

[Diesel42]

MamabearCali expresses my thoughts on this topic very well. However, after 55 years experience I must add one amendment: I'm anxiously waiting for peaceful Muslims to step up and reign in these violent extremists. The truth of any faith is proven within its members.

My two cents, Nick

Beiruity, positing one quote the Koran does not negate what thousands of Muslim men and women are screaming at the top of their lungs. I don't want to make this about Islam....it is only about that marginally. You and I could go round and round posting verses from the Koran,the bible and we would end up here again just both of us more irritated. These people believe they are acting on their faith, whether or not they are duped and believing a distorted version of Islam, I don't know.

Additionally, while individual members of any and every religion can do terrible things and be flat out insane. When a Christian goes round the bend, and off the reservation (murdering tillerman /westboro crazies) Christians very quickly denounce then and do not offer excuses for what they have done. Even you have offered excuses for these people's ridiculous behavior (the British and the Wahhabis/ a slanderous film inciting them to murder--as if words are an excuse to murder).

On Islam proper. We don't discuss religions here as a matter of course. So I will only give my thoughts on the last ten years of Islam/western interaction. I am a generous person by nature, idealist, and even at 32 years old a bit naive. I have wanted to believe that as a whole Islam could be a peaceful religion. World events over the past few years, months, and days, are disabusing me of that hope. I still cling to the small hope that perhaps these idiots at the embassies are a vocal minority, and moderates are the rule not the exception. Time will tell on that one.

[RoyGBiv]

The following is short-English translation (Not recommended) of what has been revealed in our holy book Al-Quran about the those who mock our Prophet or Islam in general. And, how our Prophet was bothered and silently harmed by their mocking. And, what our Prophet Muhammad was ordered to do.

What it means in English, (Not sure if the translation is accurate as I am not versed with so called Bible-like Language and terms when translating Arabic):
Surat, Al-Hajjar, verse 95 to verse 99.

Lo ! We are sufficent for thee against the scoffers, (95) Who set some other god along with Allah. But they will come to know. (96) Well know We that thy bosom is times oppressed by what they say, (97) But hymn the praise of thy Lord, and be of those who make prostration (unto Him). (98) And serve thy Lord till the Inevitable cometh unto thee. (99)

My understanding translated to English
95) Allah is addressing Prophet Muhammad, Peace be upon him: Allah will un-burden our Prophet Muhammad from those (scoffers) who mock the Prophet, Islam and Muslims.
96) Those who attribute to Allah, another partner in Godhood. They will know [what cometh to them in punishment; and, that they were wrong; and, they were the aggressors, the offenders]
97) Allah is addressing Prophet Muhammad, Peace be upon him: Allah knows that you, Muhammad, your are silently bothered, and harmed with what they (the scoffers) are saying and you are keeping it to yourself [Not reacting in violent way].
98) Praise Allah, and do more prayers, be of those who make prostration for Allah [Worship Allah more]
99) And, worship your Lord [Allah] till you die.

What does the Quran say about Muslims that do not follow this advice ? What about those that react to insulting words with violence and murder instead of more prayer ?

What about those that would use the opportunity to incite others to violence instead of prayer ?

[74novaman]

I leave it to our resident legal scholars to consider this matter in that context and give us their opinion as to whether perhaps, if the Guardian's quote proves true and provable, Mr. Nakoula, and perhaps others, might be prosecuted by some appropriate jurisdiction, alleging the commission of a serious crime, ranging perhaps from conspiracy to first degree murder.

To hopefully avoid backlash from certain quarters, I do not make any suggestion that the consequences of Mr. Nakoula's film were either rational or forgivable -- I suggest only that they were arguably reasonably predictable. I would suggest, however, that the rightness or wrongness of the consequences is irrelevant to the question of whether or not he might be liable for criminal conduct.

The question at hand is childishly absurdly simple. Will we allow Muslim mobs to determine the content of our Bill of Rights? Will we decide that as Americans, we have a right to freedom of speech, without considering the "global opinion" of a band of savages who want us to bow down to their stone god and its views on women, freedom and blasphemy, or will we decide that as Post-Americans we must consider the opinions of the "international community" and accept that freedom of speech is no longer feasible in a connected world?

What mobs of people do (here or abroad, of any religious or political bent) should have zero impact on our rights.

[Beiruty]

The following is short-English translation (Not recommended) of what has been revealed in our holy book Al-Quran about the those who mock our Prophet or Islam in general. And, how our Prophet was bothered and silently harmed by their mocking. And, what our Prophet Muhammad was ordered to do.

What it means in English, (Not sure if the translation is accurate as I am not versed with so called Bible-like Language and terms when translating Arabic):
Surat, Al-Hajjar, verse 95 to verse 99.

Lo ! We are sufficent for thee against the scoffers, (95) Who set some other god along with Allah. But they will come to know. (96) Well know We that thy bosom is times oppressed by what they say, (97) But hymn the praise of thy Lord, and be of those who make prostration (unto Him). (98) And serve thy Lord till the Inevitable cometh unto thee. (99)

My understanding translated to English
95) Allah is addressing Prophet Muhammad, Peace be upon him: Allah will un-burden our Prophet Muhammad from those (scoffers) who mock the Prophet, Islam and Muslims.
96) Those who attribute to Allah, another partner in Godhood. They will know [what cometh to them in punishment; and, that they were wrong; and, they were the aggressors, the offenders]
97) Allah is addressing Prophet Muhammad, Peace be upon him: Allah knows that you, Muhammad, your are silently bothered, and harmed with what they (the scoffers) are saying and you are keeping it to yourself [Not reacting in violent way].
98) Praise Allah, and do more prayers, be of those who make prostration for Allah [Worship Allah more]
99) And, worship your Lord [Allah] till you die.

What does the Quran say about Muslims that do not follow this advice ? What about those that react to insulting words with violence and murder instead of more prayer ?

What about those that would use the opportunity to incite others to violence instead of prayer ?

Deviants and extremists.

[74novaman]

I believe the post I quote above clearly shows that those persons who have dominated this thread know absolutely nothing about that with which they pretend to know everything. They do not understand, they do not wish to understand, they refuse to understand, and they will never understand. They have their fingers in their ears. Their answer to all who disagree with them is to kill. Your translation of your holy Quran, while subtle, is quite accurate and understandable.

On a side note, I am really tired of these Argumentum ad Hominem type statements from you. If you have an issue with something that a poster has said, address them specifically with your issue. You continue to paint this entire forum with a broad and false brush. This is not your first post in this forum where such broad, insulting statements were made about your fellow members if they disagree with you.

I'm sure you'll retort that insulting things are said about liberals often on here. You are 100% correct. The difference is most posts I see which are critical of liberals are general statements while yours are all directed specifically at posters in a thread or users of this board.

I took issue with something you said, so I'm addressing you directly instead of putting out there in this format:

Liberals who post on this forum seem to have such heavy observer biases that they can't help but call anyone who doesn't think like them ignorant, stupid, bloodthirsty, naive, etc. It is sad that they must resort to name calling to feel superior.

See the difference? One is an overly broad generalization that is insulting to lots of people (and I'd say a borderline personal attack, which is a big no-no here), and one is addressing a specific problem I have with a specific users post.

I only read a few posts in the full 10 pages advocating the flat out bombing of Libya in response to this. Your belief that "kill em all" statements "dominate" this thread shows more about your own observational biases than any bloodthirsty ignorance from other forum members in my opinion.

I'd urge you to reconsider making those types of statements.

I, for one, find them rather insulting to the people on this board, and counter to the tone of polite civility Charles and the mods have tried to create here between our members. You can make general statements about conservatives and I will not take offense. But when you direct these statements at your fellow board members, they start treading perilously close to becoming personal attacks.

[Beiruty]

Caption: Out of focus

[74novaman]

Interesting cartoon. I like it.

[recaffeination]

To hopefully avoid backlash from certain quarters, I do not make any suggestion that the consequences of Mr. Nakoula's film were either rational or forgivable -- I suggest only that they were arguably reasonably predictable. I would suggest, however, that the rightness or wrongness of the consequences is irrelevant to the question of whether or not he might be liable for criminal conduct.

Suppose a bank robbery goes bad and the robbers take hostages and make demands.

If people don't give into the criminals' demands, the consequences to the hostages are arguably reasonable predictable but I hope most rational intelligent people agree it would be an injustice to prosecute the mayor and police chief for murdering the hostages.

[Beiruty]

Wicked evilness is very dangerous. Nations went to war over piece of land or the destruction of properties. I understand that some naive people will over-react and resort to violence to express their feelings. Not justifying their acts, but the cartoon above clearly state the obvious.