17y/o Killed By Neighborhood Watch/CHL

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jocat54
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Re: 17y/o Killed By Neighborhood Watch/CHL

#1621

Post by jocat54 »

canvasbck wrote:I watched the entire interview last nigh on Hannity. I was kind of struck by one of the (several) tactical errors that Z made. It is a good tactical lesson for everyone.

According to his story, Z had moved back to his street when M confronted him. M asked “do you have a <expletive> problem?” Z stated that he reached into his pants pocket for his cell phone to call 911 and was momentarily surprised because he forgot that he had placed the phone in his rain jacket pocket. That was when M struck him in the nose and began the physical assault. He stated that M was within arms length of him at the time that M asked the question about Z having a problem.

Basic tactical training would tell us to create distance as soon as the threat is realized. While Z was telling the story, I could see myself backpedaling as soon as M “appeared” within arms length while placing my hand on my weapon, or possibly drawing the weapon at that time. What Z did was stand flat footed and reach into his pocket for a phone. Creating distance and placing your hand on your weapon or drawing not only would have given Z a tactical advantage; it would have lessened the chance of M turning the confrontation into a physical one.

I’m not trying to condemn or condone the actions of either person here, just trying to find some of the lessons to be learned from the confrontation.


Going to play devil's advocate here....the part about reaching into his pocket...did M think maybe he was going for a weapon?


I don't know who was right or wrong..wasn't there.
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Re: 17y/o Killed By Neighborhood Watch/CHL

#1622

Post by Heartland Patriot »

What does it really matter anymore? They are going to find GZ guilty no matter what, of SOMETHING. He's been convicted by the mass media, Al Sharpton, Jesse Jackson, the POTUS, 98% of "the black community" and all the liberals who hate firearms and self-defense, PLUS everyone else who doesn't want to make waves and just wants him plowed under to end the whole thing. What a ridiculous mess...yep, the United States of America, ruled by criminals, all praise their evil, may it increase! :mad5
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Re: 17y/o Killed By Neighborhood Watch/CHL

#1623

Post by sjfcontrol »

He'd have to be really out of it if he thought anything he might have in his pocket would beat what he had on his hip. No, I think he was going for a misplaced phone, just like he said. He did pass several lie and voice-stress tests.
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jocat54
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Re: 17y/o Killed By Neighborhood Watch/CHL

#1624

Post by jocat54 »

sjfcontrol wrote:He'd have to be really out of it if he thought anything he might have in his pocket would beat what he had on his hip. No, I think he was going for a misplaced phone, just like he said. He did pass several lie and voice-stress tests.
Sorry if I wasn't clear playing devil's advocate......I didn't mean Z.....could M have thought it was a weapon.
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Re: 17y/o Killed By Neighborhood Watch/CHL

#1625

Post by C-dub »

Heartland Patriot wrote:What does it really matter anymore? They are going to find GZ guilty no matter what, of SOMETHING. He's been convicted by the mass media, Al Sharpton, Jesse Jackson, the POTUS, 98% of "the black community" and all the liberals who hate firearms and self-defense, PLUS everyone else who doesn't want to make waves and just wants him plowed under to end the whole thing. What a ridiculous mess...yep, the United States of America, ruled by criminals, all praise their evil, may it increase! :mad5
A lot of people thought that Casey Anthony was a slam dunk. I did not. However, I never thought that Obamacare was going to be held up in the SCOTUS. I never thought the Obamanation was going to be elected president. It's weird living in upside down country. I hope we can get flipped right side up soon.

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sjfcontrol
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Re: 17y/o Killed By Neighborhood Watch/CHL

#1626

Post by sjfcontrol »

jocat54 wrote:
sjfcontrol wrote:He'd have to be really out of it if he thought anything he might have in his pocket would beat what he had on his hip. No, I think he was going for a misplaced phone, just like he said. He did pass several lie and voice-stress tests.
Sorry if I wasn't clear playing devil's advocate......I didn't mean Z.....could M have thought it was a weapon.
Ah, sorry, I didn't read it carefully enough.
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Re: 17y/o Killed By Neighborhood Watch/CHL

#1627

Post by WildBill »

George Zimmerman wrote:Trayvon Martin's death was God's will.
A really stupid thing to say IMO. If I were GZ's lawyer I would not have allowed him to say that on TV. :banghead:
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Re: 17y/o Killed By Neighborhood Watch/CHL

#1628

Post by jocat54 »

WildBill wrote:
George Zimmerman wrote:Trayvon Martin's death was God's will.
A really stupid thing to say IMO. If I were GZ's lawyer I would not have allowed him to say that on TV. :banghead:
Got to agree with you.
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Re: 17y/o Killed By Neighborhood Watch/CHL

#1629

Post by The Annoyed Man »

mamabearCali wrote:Though I think Zimmerman is stuck with Omara, there is no way in tarnation (are we allowed to say that here?) that I would ever hire him as a lawyer. TAM you are absolutely correct. You never never apologize for your actions. For heavens sakes O'mara should know that! If he absolutely needed to express regret for the loss of their son. He could say something like this. 'I sympathize with them in their grief as they have lost a child, that is always hard." GRRRR it is so hard watching someone get such terrible counsel from someone who is supposed to be an advocate for him.
Turns out I was prescient: http://abcnews.go.com/US/george-zimmerm ... AjbUzFYt8F
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Re: 17y/o Killed By Neighborhood Watch/CHL

#1630

Post by WildBill »

The Annoyed Man wrote:
mamabearCali wrote:Though I think Zimmerman is stuck with Omara, there is no way in tarnation (are we allowed to say that here?) that I would ever hire him as a lawyer. TAM you are absolutely correct. You never never apologize for your actions. For heavens sakes O'mara should know that! If he absolutely needed to express regret for the loss of their son. He could say something like this. 'I sympathize with them in their grief as they have lost a child, that is always hard." GRRRR it is so hard watching someone get such terrible counsel from someone who is supposed to be an advocate for him.
Turns out I was prescient: http://abcnews.go.com/US/george-zimmerm ... AjbUzFYt8F
More hype IMO. The trial judge would have to rule whether or not it is admissable. How is this "evidence" relavent? You can't cross examine a video.
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TheArmedFarmer
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Re: 17y/o Killed By Neighborhood Watch/CHL

#1631

Post by TheArmedFarmer »

WildBill wrote:More hype IMO. The trial judge would have to rule whether or not it is admissable. How is this "evidence" relavent? You can't cross examine a video.
You can make reference to the content of the video while deposing the witness. In order to do that the video would usually first be entered into discovery. I'm sure O'Mara knew they would enter the video into discovery - no big deal IMO.
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Re: 17y/o Killed By Neighborhood Watch/CHL

#1632

Post by Heartland Patriot »

C-dub wrote:
Heartland Patriot wrote:What does it really matter anymore? They are going to find GZ guilty no matter what, of SOMETHING. He's been convicted by the mass media, Al Sharpton, Jesse Jackson, the POTUS, 98% of "the black community" and all the liberals who hate firearms and self-defense, PLUS everyone else who doesn't want to make waves and just wants him plowed under to end the whole thing. What a ridiculous mess...yep, the United States of America, ruled by criminals, all praise their evil, may it increase! :mad5
A lot of people thought that Casey Anthony was a slam dunk. I did not. However, I never thought that Obamacare was going to be held up in the SCOTUS. I never thought the Obamanation was going to be elected president. It's weird living in upside down country. I hope we can get flipped right side up soon.

http://www.realverse.com/upside-down-la ... d-amerika/" onclick="window.open(this.href);return false;
Your posting made me want to clarify myself a bit. Though I consider this GZ/TM case to have been made into a "racebaiting" thing by the media and others like Sharpton, that is not the thrust of my highly irritated comment. You added some things that I could have put into my comment and I agree. Not counting those two dudes in Connecticut who got convicted, I keep seeing bad things that get swept aside like nothing, quite a bit of which I end up forgetting the details on because it seems so commonplace now. The Nidal Hassan thing comes to mind, as well. Yes, he's still being prosecuted, but they are dragging it out into infinity, doing it with kid gloves on so as not to offend anyone...and the FBI's own report said that it was PC that allowed it to happen in the first place. The man MURDERED how many of his fellow soldiers (even though I personally consider him a disgrace to the uniform on top of how else I feel about him) and they KNOW it was him, not any guesswork on this one. Meanwhile, how many American soldiers are languishing in prison now because they killed the wrong bunch of guys in a war zone? Bronco78 may have a different take on it, but in the military or out of it, the whole darned mess seems upside down...with the lunatics running the asylum.

recaffeination

Re: 17y/o Killed By Neighborhood Watch/CHL

#1633

Post by recaffeination »

The legal argment is "See. Even the prosecutor admits Mr. Zimmerman didnt go looking for trouble. He didn't want to shoot Mr. Martin but Mr. Martin left him no choice. He had to shoot to save his life from the savage attack.".
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Re: 17y/o Killed By Neighborhood Watch/CHL

#1634

Post by baldeagle »

Heartland Patriot wrote:the whole darned mess seems upside down...with the lunatics running the asylum.
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Re: 17y/o Killed By Neighborhood Watch/CHL

#1635

Post by The Annoyed Man »

mamabearCali wrote:Though I think Zimmerman is stuck with Omara, there is no way in tarnation (are we allowed to say that here?) that I would ever hire him as a lawyer. TAM you are absolutely correct. You never never apologize for your actions. For heavens sakes O'mara should know that! If he absolutely needed to express regret for the loss of their son. He could say something like this. 'I sympathize with them in their grief as they have lost a child, that is always hard." GRRRR it is so hard watching someone get such terrible counsel from someone who is supposed to be an advocate for him.
When I was in junior high school, my father ran over a small child on a tricycle, nearly killing him. It happened right in front of me and my horrified mother. We were leaving on spring break to go spend a week at our beach house and my dad was pulling a trailer, loaded down with beds and other stuff for the house, with his car down the alley that ran behind our house, while my mom and I followed him. A little boy on a trike, not realizing we were there in the alley, came barreling out of his family garage, hit the left rear passenger door of my dad's car and went down. My dad's left rear tire (a 1953 Mercury) and the trailer's left tire rolled over the poor kid's head and chest before my dad could get the car stopped.

In the long run, the child lived. He suffered a fractured skull, broken ribs and a punctured lung, but the local ER was able to save his life. His older brother was a playmate of mine and my brothers, and we knew the boy very well. To top it off, both of their parents were already dead, having been killed in a car wreck when they were much younger, and they were being raised by their grandparents. To the grandparents, the potential loss of one of the two grandchildren—all they had to remember their own children by—was a crushing blow.

My dad felt sooooo bad for them. We all did. These people were neighbors and friends. And the accident was 100% the child's fault. There was literally nothing my dad could have done to avoid it, except to have not been there, in that alley, on that day. He wasn't speeding. We were going maybe 5 mph. He had, for all practical purposes, already passed the entrance to that garage, the interior of which was in shadow, and what transpired actually happened behind him from where he sat in the driver's seat....so there was no way he could have known that this boy would appear out of nowhere.

The point of all this is that my dad felt so bad about it that he wanted to send flowers to the boy's grandmother along with a note saying how sorry he was that this had happened. I very clearly remember the insurance company's lawyer telling him, "NO! Do not do that. Sending those flowers may make you feel better about it, but in court it will be taken as an admission that you think you could have done something differently to avoid the accident; and a judge or jury will find you to to be at least partially responsible, if not entirely so, and we won't be able to help you then."

He never sent the flowers, but it broke his heart. Fortunately, the kid did survive although he had a nasty scar on his forehead that was visible for a long time.

When you are involved in a situation which results in the injury or death of another person, no matter how bad you might feel for them or their family, you simply don't open yourself up to litigation. For better or for worse, we live in a litigious society. Even if you're 100% in the right, an admission of sorrow on behalf of the other person opens you up to liability you don't want. So, if you simply MUST say something, "I am very sorry that your son put me in a position of having to use deadly force to defend myself; I wish it had never happened," is a whole lot better than "I am very sorry I took your son's life." Zimmerman stepped in a big cow patty with that one.
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