Failure to Conceal?

[Longshot38]

The chance of being caught doesn't change the legality or illegality of the act. Getting drunk at a friend's house while carrying under the authority of your CHL doesn't become legal simply because nobody there will call the cops.

Actually yes it does. Lets look at a couple of examples:

Scenario 1
So you are at your buddies home one day for a visit. During the visit you two converse about firearms. And at some point during the conversation your buddy ask to see your EDC. So you do what you are supposed to and and unload the firearm and hand it to said buddy. After he completes his examination of the weapon it is returned to you and it is then returned to concealment.

Was a crime committed? No. Nothing in the law says that you must not ever show anyone your firearm. Rather it says that while in public spaces you must conceal your firearm. Extending this further are you breaking the law when you openly carry in your home, no your not. Because the CHL law only applies to public spaces which your home is not not is your buddies. To top that off TX has no brandishing law only a concealment law. Now to be the devils advocate. Say the police are called to your buddies home and you have your pistol visible are you in violation of the law. Not in terms of concealment. Because you buddy has the right to tell those in his home that unconcealed weapons are permitted. This beyond the scope of the law and well within the home owners rights.

Scenario 2
So you are attending a family reunion at the park. So your EDC is with you and some where in the conversation the topic of concealed carry comes up and the bright idea of some show and tell comes up. Is this legal? Absolutely not. Because unlike the previous scenario you are in a public space the the CHL law is 100 applicable here.

So yes situation does matter. And it is entirely relevant in the court of law.

[RottenApple]

Actually yes it does. Lets look at a couple of examples:

Scenario 1
So you are at your buddies home one day for a visit. During the visit you two converse about firearms. And at some point during the conversation your buddy ask to see your EDC. So you do what you are supposed to and and unload the firearm and hand it to said buddy. After he completes his examination of the weapon it is returned to you and it is then returned to concealment.

Was a crime committed? No. Nothing in the law says that you must not ever show anyone your firearm. Rather it says that while in public spaces you must conceal your firearm. Extending this further are you breaking the law when you openly carry in your home, no your not. Because the CHL law only applies to public spaces which your home is not not is your buddies. To top that off TX has no brandishing law only a concealment law. Now to be the devils advocate. Say the police are called to your buddies home and you have your pistol visible are you in violation of the law. Not in terms of concealment. Because you buddy has the right to tell those in his home that unconcealed weapons are permitted. This beyond the scope of the law and well within the home owners rights.

Scenario 2
So you are attending a family reunion at the park. So your EDC is with you and some where in the conversation the topic of concealed carry comes up and the bright idea of some show and tell comes up. Is this legal? Absolutely not. Because unlike the previous scenario you are in a public space the the CHL law is 100 applicable here.

So yes situation does matter. And it is entirely relevant in the court of law.

You might want to take another look at the law. Nowhere does it say "public spaces".

Sec. 46.02. UNLAWFUL CARRYING WEAPONS. (a) A person commits an offense if the person intentionally, knowingly, or recklessly carries on or about his or her person a handgun, illegal knife, or club if the person is not:

(1) on the person's own premises or premises under the person's control; or

(2) inside of or directly en route to a motor vehicle or watercraft that is owned by the person or under the person's control.

(a-1) A person commits an offense if the person intentionally, knowingly, or recklessly carries on or about his or her person a handgun in a motor vehicle or watercraft that is owned by the person or under the person's control at any time in which:

(1) the handgun is in plain view; or

(2) the person is:

(A) engaged in criminal activity, other than a Class C misdemeanor that is a violation of a law or ordinance regulating traffic or boating;

(B) prohibited by law from possessing a firearm; or

(C) a member of a criminal street gang, as defined by Section 71.01.

(a-2) For purposes of this section, "premises" includes real property and a recreational vehicle that is being used as living quarters, regardless of whether that use is temporary or permanent. In this subsection, "recreational vehicle" means a motor vehicle primarily designed as temporary living quarters or a vehicle that contains temporary living quarters and is designed to be towed by a motor vehicle. The term includes a travel trailer, camping trailer, truck camper, motor home, and horse trailer with living quarters.

(a-3) For purposes of this section, "watercraft" means any boat, motorboat, vessel, or personal watercraft, other than a seaplane on water, used or capable of being used for transportation on water.

(b) Except as provided by Subsection (c), an offense under this section is a Class A misdemeanor.

(c) An offense under this section is a felony of the third degree if the offense is committed on any premises licensed or issued a permit by this state for the sale of alcoholic beverages.

Looks to me that the law is crystal clear on this one. Unless it is your property or property under your control, it is illegal to intentionally display your firearm.

[Heartland Patriot]

Just a thought, if god forbid, the gun were to discharge someone is probably going to call the cops. Once they arrive the offender is probably going to be charged with discharging a firearm in a public place, failure to conceal, if the person is a CHL holder, if not unlawfully carrying a firearm and if the bullet hits someone a couple of other charges depending on the extent of injury. Remember no civilian can obsolve you of adhering to the Texas Penal code !,

Where did that come from? "..the gun were to discharge..." You mean, someone pulls the trigger? Because the VAST majority of the time, that is how you get a firearm to discharge, by pulling the trigger. So why would they pull the trigger? What I want to know is what spurred you to say that in the first place.

[Longshot38]

Actually yes it does. Lets look at a couple of examples:

Scenario 1
So you are at your buddies home one day for a visit. During the visit you two converse about firearms. And at some point during the conversation your buddy ask to see your EDC. So you do what you are supposed to and and unload the firearm and hand it to said buddy. After he completes his examination of the weapon it is returned to you and it is then returned to concealment.

Was a crime committed? No. Nothing in the law says that you must not ever show anyone your firearm. Rather it says that while in public spaces you must conceal your firearm. Extending this further are you breaking the law when you openly carry in your home, no your not. Because the CHL law only applies to public spaces which your home is not not is your buddies. To top that off TX has no brandishing law only a concealment law. Now to be the devils advocate. Say the police are called to your buddies home and you have your pistol visible are you in violation of the law. Not in terms of concealment. Because you buddy has the right to tell those in his home that unconcealed weapons are permitted. This beyond the scope of the law and well within the home owners rights.

Scenario 2
So you are attending a family reunion at the park. So your EDC is with you and some where in the conversation the topic of concealed carry comes up and the bright idea of some show and tell comes up. Is this legal? Absolutely not. Because unlike the previous scenario you are in a public space the the CHL law is 100 applicable here.

So yes situation does matter. And it is entirely relevant in the court of law.

You might want to take another look at the law. Nowhere does it say "public spaces".

Sec. 46.02. UNLAWFUL CARRYING WEAPONS. (a) A person commits an offense if the person intentionally, knowingly, or recklessly carries on or about his or her person a handgun, illegal knife, or club if the person is not:

(1) on the person's own premises or premises under the person's control; or

(2) inside of or directly en route to a motor vehicle or watercraft that is owned by the person or under the person's control.

(a-1) A person commits an offense if the person intentionally, knowingly, or recklessly carries on or about his or her person a handgun in a motor vehicle or watercraft that is owned by the person or under the person's control at any time in which:

(1) the handgun is in plain view; or

(2) the person is:

(A) engaged in criminal activity, other than a Class C misdemeanor that is a violation of a law or ordinance regulating traffic or boating;

(B) prohibited by law from possessing a firearm; or

(C) a member of a criminal street gang, as defined by Section 71.01.

(a-2) For purposes of this section, "premises" includes real property and a recreational vehicle that is being used as living quarters, regardless of whether that use is temporary or permanent. In this subsection, "recreational vehicle" means a motor vehicle primarily designed as temporary living quarters or a vehicle that contains temporary living quarters and is designed to be towed by a motor vehicle. The term includes a travel trailer, camping trailer, truck camper, motor home, and horse trailer with living quarters.

(a-3) For purposes of this section, "watercraft" means any boat, motorboat, vessel, or personal watercraft, other than a seaplane on water, used or capable of being used for transportation on water.

(b) Except as provided by Subsection (c), an offense under this section is a Class A misdemeanor.

(c) An offense under this section is a felony of the third degree if the offense is committed on any premises licensed or issued a permit by this state for the sale of alcoholic beverages.

Looks to me that the law is crystal clear on this one. Unless it is your property or property under your control, it is illegal to intentionally display your firearm.

Your right and wrong at the same time. The CHL law is clear. But it what is not in that section of the law and must be found elsewhere is property owners rights. A private property owner has every right to give someone permission to openly carry on his or her own property. And in this event the CHL law no longer applies because you are no longer operating under it. Thus back to my point. Believe it or not property owners have both the right restrict or embrace firearms and allow for their carry in any fashion on their own property. If I wanted to I could hand a firearm, pistol or long gun, to every adult that entered property and require then to carry it in any fashion I wished. This is because the CHL law does not cover activities on private property only those that pertain to public property. In fact the only thing in that law to extends to private property is the 30.06 posting and 51% portion.

[C-dub]

Your right and wrong at the same time. The CHL law is clear. But it what is not in that section of the law and must be found elsewhere is property owners rights. A private property owner has every right to give someone permission to openly carry on his or her own property. And in this event the CHL law no longer applies because you are no longer operating under it. Thus back to my point. Believe it or not property owners have both the right restrict or embrace firearms and allow for their carry in any fashion on their own property. If I wanted to I could hand a firearm, pistol or long gun, to every adult that entered property and require then to carry it in any fashion I wished. This is because the CHL law does not cover activities on private property only those that pertain to public property. In fact the only thing in that law to extends to private property is the 30.06 posting and 51% portion.

viewtopic.php?f=7&t=38771&hilit=unconce ... 30#p463482" onclick="window.open(this.href);return false;
Stephen is absolutely correct.

No person can give you permission to violate a Penal Code provision, so your friend cannot give you permission to violate TPC §46.035(a) and intentionally fail to conceal your handgun.

When you are in your friend's home, you are carrying pursuant to the authority of your CHL so TPC §46.035(a) applies. Your friend does not transfer control of his home to you merely by granting permission to enter with a gun, or to use the restroom, or to get a drink of water. Sorry, this isn't the least bit ambiguous and the courts would reject that argument summarily. At most, your friend would be "granting" you control over your own firearm, not his home.

As Stephen said, the OP's scenario is one in which a violation of TPC §46.035(a) would occur (intentional failure to conceal), but there is little chance of prosecution because there would be no complaining witness. Let's extend this hypothetical and say your friend's mother in law is Sarah Brady and she comes in and sees you handling your handgun. She panics and calls the police. It won't help for your friend to tell the police "it's okay, I said he could show his handgun" anymore than he could tell them "I gave him permission to bring his cocaine into my home." No one can give another person permission to violate the law.

Chas.

Re-read this from a lawyer, and a pretty darn good one when it comes to firearms laws in Texas.

[Longshot38]

Your right and wrong at the same time. The CHL law is clear. But it what is not in that section of the law and must be found elsewhere is property owners rights. A private property owner has every right to give someone permission to openly carry on his or her own property. And in this event the CHL law no longer applies because you are no longer operating under it. Thus back to my point. Believe it or not property owners have both the right restrict or embrace firearms and allow for their carry in any fashion on their own property. If I wanted to I could hand a firearm, pistol or long gun, to every adult that entered property and require then to carry it in any fashion I wished. This is because the CHL law does not cover activities on private property only those that pertain to public property. In fact the only thing in that law to extends to private property is the 30.06 posting and 51% portion.

viewtopic.php?f=7&t=38771&hilit=unconce ... 30#p463482" onclick="window.open(this.href);return false;
Stephen is absolutely correct.

No person can give you permission to violate a Penal Code provision, so your friend cannot give you permission to violate TPC §46.035(a) and intentionally fail to conceal your handgun.

When you are in your friend's home, you are carrying pursuant to the authority of your CHL so TPC §46.035(a) applies. Your friend does not transfer control of his home to you merely by granting permission to enter with a gun, or to use the restroom, or to get a drink of water. Sorry, this isn't the least bit ambiguous and the courts would reject that argument summarily. At most, your friend would be "granting" you control over your own firearm, not his home.

As Stephen said, the OP's scenario is one in which a violation of TPC §46.035(a) would occur (intentional failure to conceal), but there is little chance of prosecution because there would be no complaining witness. Let's extend this hypothetical and say your friend's mother in law is Sarah Brady and she comes in and sees you handling your handgun. She panics and calls the police. It won't help for your friend to tell the police "it's okay, I said he could show his handgun" anymore than he could tell them "I gave him permission to bring his cocaine into my home." No one can give another person permission to violate the law.

Chas.

Re-read this from a lawyer, and a pretty darn good one when it comes to firearms laws in Texas.

And in this case the Attorney is not correct. Because as previously stated, once an property owner tells a guest on his/her own property that they can openly carry a sidearm, because the CHL law does not apply to long guns, then the guest is no longer under the jurisdiction of the CHL law. As a property owner I do have rights and I can chose to allow or disallow many things on my property. And as you pistol is not an illegal or otherwise legally restricted item I have every right to chose to allow it on my property in any fashion I deem appropriate.

[Jaguar]

Actually yes it does. Lets look at a couple of examples:

Scenario 1
So you are at your buddies home one day for a visit. During the visit you two converse about firearms. And at some point during the conversation your buddy ask to see your EDC. So you do what you are supposed to and and unload the firearm and hand it to said buddy. After he completes his examination of the weapon it is returned to you and it is then returned to concealment.

Was a crime committed? No. Nothing in the law says that you must not ever show anyone your firearm. Rather it says that while in public spaces you must conceal your firearm. Extending this further are you breaking the law when you openly carry in your home, no your not. Because the CHL law only applies to public spaces which your home is not not is your buddies. To top that off TX has no brandishing law only a concealment law. Now to be the devils advocate. Say the police are called to your buddies home and you have your pistol visible are you in violation of the law. Not in terms of concealment. Because you buddy has the right to tell those in his home that unconcealed weapons are permitted. This beyond the scope of the law and well within the home owners rights.

Scenario 2
So you are attending a family reunion at the park. So your EDC is with you and some where in the conversation the topic of concealed carry comes up and the bright idea of some show and tell comes up. Is this legal? Absolutely not. Because unlike the previous scenario you are in a public space the the CHL law is 100 applicable here.

So yes situation does matter. And it is entirely relevant in the court of law.

You might want to take another look at the law. Nowhere does it say "public spaces".

Sec. 46.02. UNLAWFUL CARRYING WEAPONS. (a) A person commits an offense if the person intentionally, knowingly, or recklessly carries on or about his or her person a handgun, illegal knife, or club if the person is not:

(1) on the person's own premises or premises under the person's control; or

(2) inside of or directly en route to a motor vehicle or watercraft that is owned by the person or under the person's control.

(a-1) A person commits an offense if the person intentionally, knowingly, or recklessly carries on or about his or her person a handgun in a motor vehicle or watercraft that is owned by the person or under the person's control at any time in which:

(1) the handgun is in plain view; or

(2) the person is:

(A) engaged in criminal activity, other than a Class C misdemeanor that is a violation of a law or ordinance regulating traffic or boating;

(B) prohibited by law from possessing a firearm; or

(C) a member of a criminal street gang, as defined by Section 71.01.

(a-2) For purposes of this section, "premises" includes real property and a recreational vehicle that is being used as living quarters, regardless of whether that use is temporary or permanent. In this subsection, "recreational vehicle" means a motor vehicle primarily designed as temporary living quarters or a vehicle that contains temporary living quarters and is designed to be towed by a motor vehicle. The term includes a travel trailer, camping trailer, truck camper, motor home, and horse trailer with living quarters.

(a-3) For purposes of this section, "watercraft" means any boat, motorboat, vessel, or personal watercraft, other than a seaplane on water, used or capable of being used for transportation on water.

(b) Except as provided by Subsection (c), an offense under this section is a Class A misdemeanor.

(c) An offense under this section is a felony of the third degree if the offense is committed on any premises licensed or issued a permit by this state for the sale of alcoholic beverages.

Looks to me that the law is crystal clear on this one. Unless it is your property or property under your control, it is illegal to intentionally display your firearm.

So, if I take my concealed handgun to the range that I don't own and is not under my control, I'm only a member of the club, I cannot pull out said concealed handgun and shoot at targets with it? Do I have to take it off my belt in the car and carry it to the shooting station to stay in compliance with the law?

[RottenApple]

Actually yes it does. Lets look at a couple of examples:

Scenario 1
So you are at your buddies home one day for a visit. During the visit you two converse about firearms. And at some point during the conversation your buddy ask to see your EDC. So you do what you are supposed to and and unload the firearm and hand it to said buddy. After he completes his examination of the weapon it is returned to you and it is then returned to concealment.

Was a crime committed? No. Nothing in the law says that you must not ever show anyone your firearm. Rather it says that while in public spaces you must conceal your firearm. Extending this further are you breaking the law when you openly carry in your home, no your not. Because the CHL law only applies to public spaces which your home is not not is your buddies. To top that off TX has no brandishing law only a concealment law. Now to be the devils advocate. Say the police are called to your buddies home and you have your pistol visible are you in violation of the law. Not in terms of concealment. Because you buddy has the right to tell those in his home that unconcealed weapons are permitted. This beyond the scope of the law and well within the home owners rights.

Scenario 2
So you are attending a family reunion at the park. So your EDC is with you and some where in the conversation the topic of concealed carry comes up and the bright idea of some show and tell comes up. Is this legal? Absolutely not. Because unlike the previous scenario you are in a public space the the CHL law is 100 applicable here.

So yes situation does matter. And it is entirely relevant in the court of law.

You might want to take another look at the law. Nowhere does it say "public spaces".

Sec. 46.02. UNLAWFUL CARRYING WEAPONS. (a) A person commits an offense if the person intentionally, knowingly, or recklessly carries on or about his or her person a handgun, illegal knife, or club if the person is not:

(1) on the person's own premises or premises under the person's control; or

(2) inside of or directly en route to a motor vehicle or watercraft that is owned by the person or under the person's control.

(a-1) A person commits an offense if the person intentionally, knowingly, or recklessly carries on or about his or her person a handgun in a motor vehicle or watercraft that is owned by the person or under the person's control at any time in which:

(1) the handgun is in plain view; or

(2) the person is:

(A) engaged in criminal activity, other than a Class C misdemeanor that is a violation of a law or ordinance regulating traffic or boating;

(B) prohibited by law from possessing a firearm; or

(C) a member of a criminal street gang, as defined by Section 71.01.

(a-2) For purposes of this section, "premises" includes real property and a recreational vehicle that is being used as living quarters, regardless of whether that use is temporary or permanent. In this subsection, "recreational vehicle" means a motor vehicle primarily designed as temporary living quarters or a vehicle that contains temporary living quarters and is designed to be towed by a motor vehicle. The term includes a travel trailer, camping trailer, truck camper, motor home, and horse trailer with living quarters.

(a-3) For purposes of this section, "watercraft" means any boat, motorboat, vessel, or personal watercraft, other than a seaplane on water, used or capable of being used for transportation on water.

(b) Except as provided by Subsection (c), an offense under this section is a Class A misdemeanor.

(c) An offense under this section is a felony of the third degree if the offense is committed on any premises licensed or issued a permit by this state for the sale of alcoholic beverages.

Looks to me that the law is crystal clear on this one. Unless it is your property or property under your control, it is illegal to intentionally display your firearm.

So, if I take my concealed handgun to the range that I don't own and is not under my control, I'm only a member of the club, I cannot pull out said concealed handgun and shoot at targets with it? Do I have to take it off my belt in the car and carry it to the shooting station to stay in compliance with the law?

From reading the black letter of the law, I'd say yes, that it would be illegal to unholster in the scenario you outlined. There doesn't seem to be any exception for a range or other property. But as has already been stated, if there is no one to file a complaint.....

[C-dub]

No. A range is a place where it is a sporting activity and is expected. You cannot possible shoot your gun from the holster or from inside the case. That's just plain silly. Hey. I'm not a lawyer, but Charles is and he probably wrote and or hand a hand in most of the CHL laws here in Texas. So, don't take his word for it.

[Longshot38]

Attorney or not Charles is off course with his post. It is a legally accepted principal that any right I have on my property I can extend to my guest at my discretion. And the CHL law is not all encompassing. It only applies when one is carrying under it, and just possessing a CHL does not mean you are constantly carrying under this law. Example is when you are in your own home, the CHL law does not apply here. You can carry either openly or concealed and I have a lot more leeway in what I can do versus what I can do in public. This is because not all parts of the law apply equally to all circumstances.

[C-dub]

Attorney or not Charles is off course with his post. It is a legally accepted principal that any right I have on my property I can extend to my guest at my discretion. And the CHL law is not all encompassing. It only applies when one is carrying under it, and just possessing a CHL does not mean you are constantly carrying under this law. Example is when you are in your own home, the CHL law does not apply here. You can carry either openly or concealed and I have a lot more leeway in what I can do versus what I can do in public. This is because not all parts of the law apply equally to all circumstances.

If you give your friend power of attorney, then I agree. Otherwise, no. You are correct, of course, about in your own home. Otherwise, when not in your own home or on your own property, you are most certainly carrying under the authority of your CHL.

[C-dub]

BTW, what is it that makes you think the lawyer who wrote some and possibly most of these laws doesn't know what they mean? Is there some court case or ruling that interprets in the manner you're proposing?

[Longshot38]

Attorney or not Charles is off course with his post. It is a legally accepted principal that any right I have on my property I can extend to my guest at my discretion. And the CHL law is not all encompassing. It only applies when one is carrying under it, and just possessing a CHL does not mean you are constantly carrying under this law. Example is when you are in your own home, the CHL law does not apply here. You can carry either openly or concealed and I have a lot more leeway in what I can do versus what I can do in public. This is because not all parts of the law apply equally to all circumstances.

If you give your friend power of attorney, then I agree. Otherwise, no. You are correct, of course, about in your own home. Otherwise, when not in your own home or on your own property, you are most certainly carrying under the authority of your CHL.

So your saying that a Police Officer who has a CHL is breaking the law when he is openly carrying his weapon? I don't think so. And yes I can extend my rights to the guest in my home without power of attorney. Power of Attorney is not a document about extending your rights to others rather it is document about taking your rights and giving them to some else. But in this case we are talking about something completely different. It is like this. If I were to call my buddies up during a time of need and tell them I need some extra security around my home. Then they can show up and I can hand them weapons and they can act on my behalf without anything being written, that perfectly legal. However I am still legally and civilly liable for their actions because they were acting on my behalf. So no the CHL law is NOT all encompassing and does not apply in all situations.

[apostate]

A private property owner has every right to give someone permission to openly carry on his or her own property.

Please cite the law which says that.

[RPB]

Attorney or not Charles is off course with his post. It is a legally accepted principal that any right I have on my property I can extend to my guest at my discretion. And the CHL law is not all encompassing. It only applies when one is carrying under it, and just possessing a CHL does not mean you are constantly carrying under this law. Example is when you are in your own home, the CHL law does not apply here. You can carry either openly or concealed and I have a lot more leeway in what I can do versus what I can do in public. This is because not all parts of the law apply equally to all circumstances.

Whaaaat?
What is the name of this legal maxim?
Most places recognize the right of a person/homeowner to make certain home improvements to their own property without pulling a permit from the city/county but don't generally allow homeowners to go around willy-nilly giving power of attorney to "friends" to do the work in order to avoid permit fees.

A private property owner has every right to give someone permission to openly carry on his or her own property.

Please cite the law which says that.

I'm also @ "power of attorney,"
If you change "power of attorney," to "deed" such that the property is now owned by and under the control of your friend, then you could give him permission to carry on his own property, (though he wouldn't need it.)



==========
As far as non-chls -

Sec. 46.02. UNLAWFUL CARRYING WEAPONS. (a) A person commits an offense if the person intentionally, knowingly, or recklessly carries on or about his or her person a handgun, illegal knife, or club if the person is not:

(1) on the person's own premises or premises under the person's control;

as far as CHLs

Texas Penal Code Section 46.035(a)
A license holder commits an offense if the license holder carries a handgun on or about the license holder's person under the authority of Subchapter H, Chapter 411, Government Code, and intentionally fails to conceal the handgun.

Ok, I showed you mine ... show me yours.

A private property owner has every right to give someone permission to openly carry on his or her own property.

Cite where you find such law