17y/o Killed By Neighborhood Watch/CHL

[sjfcontrol]

Zimmerman has been released again. Link

[tbrown]

Shortly before Zimmerman's release, the Rev. Al Sharpton criticized Zimmerman for raising money through online donations. The civil rights leader was in New Orleans with Martin's parents, Tracy Martin and Sybrina Fulton.

"Now, we see they are soliciting money!" Sharpton said. Read more: http://www.foxnews.com/us/2012/07/06/zi ... z1zsXKB44F" onclick="window.open(this.href);return false;

It's none of Sharpton's business who supports Zimmerman or how he raises defense funds. And you put me in with his ilk?

It sounds like Al Sharptongue is jealous because none of his supporters are smart or hard working enough to hold down a job and thereby have some discretionary income to donate to him.

[baldeagle]

Chas. your contradiction surprised me! Your first words were "While it's true no one should prejudge until all the evidence is evaluated..." you then proceed to prejudge!!!!!!

Are you thinking that extra exclamation marks emphasize your point better? Because I can assure you that the people on this forum are intelligent enough to get your point without them, even when you're completely wrong. Go back and read what Charles wrote. He never even commented on the evidence or on whether Zimmerman was innocent or guilty.

As an attorney I thought you knew better than that. There is ample information in the public domain that may have equal weight and cast equal doubt on his innocence as well as his guilt. How come you didn't list that as well??? Is it because you prejudged? Do you have a bias? Believe it or not, not all the evidence is in the public domain. This is true for defense and the prosecution. A lot of what has been reported in the public domain is not accurate or it's incomplete. Do you disagree? Have you had any kind of special access? I doubt it. I'm only suggesting you and others to let this play out. For years I've seen over and over in this forum the old saying "I'd rather be judged by 12 than carried by 6". How come the majority on this forum, including it's founder, don't want to wait for that? This case is being tried in the media and in forums like this one all over the country. No one I've read the comments of, including you I assume, have had the chance to review anything close to the complete, original, and total evidence in this case. I don't have a dog in this fight. I personally don't care if he is guilty of murder or proved innocent by self defense. Either way two individuals and their families have been severely impacted by all of this. Very sad for all of them.

If you had actually been reading this forum for years, you would know better than to insult its founder so openly in the forum. (And yes I can see that you joined in 2009.) You mock him for being an attorney. You treat him like a child ("Believe it or not") as if he's not capable of figuring this out without your help.

As to your questions about the evidence, a great deal of evidence has been released, and I have reviewed all of it in detail. I have also watched both bond hearings. I've listened to every 911 call, to Zimmerman's call to the dispatcher, to all of the interviews done by the police (that have been released) including Trayvon's girl friend "Dede". I've examined the 7-11 tapes (which are not in the evidence released) and read volumes and volumes of blog posts on the case. I have heard the special investigator testify under oath that they had no evidence to refute Zimmerman's story. A reasonable person might ask, well, then why is he still in jail? Why have you not dropped the charges?

Finally, if you had no dog in this fight, as you claim, you wouldn't bother to read the posts in this thread, much less respond to them. You clearly have a dog in the fight. You've posted 35 times, and 12 of those have been in this thread. So please stop insulting our intelligence. Be honest. Express your opinion, like everyone else does, and leave it at that. This is a topic that obviously interests a number of the members of this thread, for many various reasons. You're welcome to post more if you like. But keep in mind that we're not stupid, and we don't need to be talked down to.

[The Annoyed Man]

Bill in case you mised it. GZ has a righ to remain silent. If you have ever been in a court proceeding the first thing your attorney tells you to do is to KEEP YOUR TRAP SHUT. If shelly lied, which is far from clear, george still did not lie. You don't speak out of turn in court. Additionally the judge refused a continuance so Omara could get up to speed, and the judge knew about the account before Z even got out of jail the first time. In his ruling the judge showed ridiculous animosity towards Z, and basically told Omara to hades with the facts. It is not just Z's word. It is the 911 call, Z's injuries and TM's lack of them, and a witness statement that z has on his side all before his story is even told.

This is agood old fashioned railroading and it is terrible to see.

BillT, here's hoping that you get exactly the same treatment that GZ is getting should you ever have to use your weapon in self defense.....exactly the same treatment, and all of it that you can stand.

If it weren't a violation of RULE #2, I would make the same personal attack against you, but I'm trying to stay above that and be respectful of others, even the ones that disagree with me!!! The risk facing Mr. Zimmerman is a risk choice we all make when we choose to carry. Hopefully if I find myself in a horrible self defense situation I will be the survivor and the circumstances of my innocence will be clear to all. I won't ever be in Zimmerman's specific situation because as a rule I move in the opposite direction of potential trouble and conflict instead of moving towards it. He made a different choice than I would have in following Martin. That single choice has made his life much more difficult. But it was his choice... BTW, please avoid the RULE #2 violations! With 11,098 post I thought you might know that by now! Let's keep this forum a respectful place. Thank you.

I don't mean to pile on, but I have to say that your answer betrays that you are experiencing some cognitive dissonance here between the position you have staked out vis-a-vis GZ on the one hand, but not wishing the same treatment for yourself if you find yourself in similar circumstances on the other hand.....and that is all that I wished for you....that you would receive treatment consistent with your views in the matter. Nothing more. Nothing less. I seek clarity in all things, and clarity does not equal an attack......but it can be uncomfortable for the person upon whom clarity sheds her light.

[The Annoyed Man]

I am biased only against people who rush to judgement (either way). I have not and will not take a position on Mr. Zimmerman's guilt or innocence, I don't have the information to do that. By suggesting that others on this forum not rush to judge him innocent, I am being made out as someone who thinks he's guilty. Sorry but that is just not true. I am not an attorney, I am not an LEO, I am not an investigator with the DA's office, I didn't even sleep in a Holiday Inn Express last night. But since I am not trying to judge Mr. Zimmerman either way I really don't see what that matters nor why someone who has one of those titles, but is not on the case, has any right to judge either. You are just like Jesse Jackson and Al Sharpton but you speak on behalf of the other side of the arguement with the other half of the facts. The Sharpton's, Jackson's, Cotton's, and TAM's of the world just need to chill out and let the judicial process play out. My reference to how Mr. Zimmerman is being treated related how his bail was raised in his second bond hearing. If you read Judge Lester's reasons for raising the bail to 1 million then you understand his thought process. Not that you have to agree with it, because you don't have the information available to you that the Judge has. He clearly thinks that Mr. Zimmerman was a flight risk. I understand that he was concerned about that and he didn't buy the defense claim of confusion and misunderstanding. It's his job as the Judge. It's his job to help keep the defendant available for trial. Zimmerman's lack of truthfulness at the first bond hearing caused the results of the second bond hearing plain and simple. Now where's that Holiday Inn Express...

And now who is courting violations of rule #2? And no, I'm not an attorney. I'm just a guy who has to live in the wreckage that some attorneys (Crump the race-baiter, for instance) leave for the rest of us to clean up.

[Oldgringo]

Boy Howdy! This incident in a far off state involving people we've never before heard of is sure causing angst and vitriol here in the Lone Star state amonst this otherwise august body of learned and righteous souls.

What say we all just take a step back, inhale deeply, go 'snake eyes' and slap leather? Last one standing wins.

ITMT, the far off state of displaced yankees will plod through its soverign mess unhindered by our remote Texas view of right and wrong - absent Texas legalities.

[clarionite]

How does the presumption of innocense equate to judging? Everyone is innocent until judged guilty. That's the point that so many people seem to forget.

[57Coastie]

How does the presumption of innocense equate to judging? Everyone is innocent until judged guilty. That's the point that so many people seem to forget.

They are innocent until they are PROVED guilty.

Jim

[clarionite]

I intentionally said Judged... I know what it's supposed to be, but I've seen a few cases where I think the court system failed and innocent people went to jail. But I worked in multiple correctional facilities and know there's no innocent men in Prison. <G>

[gringo pistolero]

They're guilty the moment they commit the crime. They're innocent if they didn't.

[BKRushing]

This case is a hornet's nest if ever I saw one. I can honestly say I have changed my mind about this almost daily. It's a tragedy for sure what happened, but you can't ignore the fact that Trayvon Martin and George Zimmerman both made some critical mistakes that if you removed just one from the equation this most likely wouldn't have happened. As I understand it, Martin made it home then came back out to confront Zimmerman. DUMB MOVE #1. If I make it home safely after being followed home, I am pretty much done going out that night and I will be calling the police to deal with whomever is lurking around outside. That is their job and I am not looking to put in an application. As for Zimmerman, getting out of the car and following this kid to keep an eye on him was DUMB MOVE #2. Again, police get paid for that, not neighborhood watch volunteers. As a CHL holder, I am not looking for trouble to go bust up and be the hero. If I see someone sneaking around my neighborhood, I am not pulling my gun to play TJ Hooker unless I or my family are directly in the line of fire. WE DON'T HAVE THE PROPER TRAINING FOR THAT!

[baldeagle]

This case is a hornet's nest if ever I saw one. I can honestly say I have changed my mind about this almost daily. It's a tragedy for sure what happened, but you can't ignore the fact that Trayvon Martin and George Zimmerman both made some critical mistakes that if you removed just one from the equation this most likely wouldn't have happened. As I understand it, Martin made it home then came back out to confront Zimmerman. DUMB MOVE #1. If I make it home safely after being followed home, I am pretty much done going out that night and I will be calling the police to deal with whomever is lurking around outside. That is their job and I am not looking to put in an application. As for Zimmerman, getting out of the car and following this kid to keep an eye on him was DUMB MOVE #2. Again, police get paid for that, not neighborhood watch volunteers. As a CHL holder, I am not looking for trouble to go bust up and be the hero. If I see someone sneaking around my neighborhood, I am not pulling my gun to play TJ Hooker unless I or my family are directly in the line of fire. WE DON'T HAVE THE PROPER TRAINING FOR THAT!

Very nicely put.

[BillT]

Rule #2. No personal attacks on other members - NONE! We can be respectful even in disagreement. If you're talking about the person rather than the issue, then the post will be deleted.

Please see CROSSFIRES post above: apparently talking about the person rather than the issue is not a violation of Rule #2 as I always thought. This rule needs to be corrected!

You are just like Jesse Jackson and Al Sharpton but you speak on behalf of the other side of the arguement with the other half of the facts. The Sharpton's, Jackson's, Cotton's, and TAM's of the world just need to chill out and let the judicial process play out.

Congratulations! It is really hard to get banned from this forum, but you have shown your lack of respect for the forum and it's members by your repeated insults and violation of forum protocols. I believe that it will be an easy decision for those making it.
You were welcomed to this established forum and, in short order, proceeded to insult the administrator, moderators and long time members. IMO, your posts were rude and showed bad manners. A bit of advice: You don't tug on Superman's cape.

for BillT to be banned.

This is hilarious! I don't plan on violating any rules of this forum intentionally. But I am not willing to be intimidated because I support withholding judgement of Mr. Zimmerman's guilt or innocence. Sorry it's just not going to happen. I am being attacked because I am not willing to jump on the "drop the charges" bandwagon. I won't tug on Superman's cape but be sure, I won't kiss the Bishop's ring either! By the way who here is Superman? If anyone took any of my comments as an insult then they need to get some thicker skin. Founders, administrators, moderators, and especially long time members don't accrue any special rights or privalages that are not detailed in the forum rules. If your looking for a forum that doesn't allow members to post alternative views and opinions then you are clearly in the wrong place yourself.
Posting on this forum is a lot like jabbing a stick in a red ant pile. You never know what might surface all hot and mad and wanting to sting someone. I'm not alergic to ants and the little bump the bite makes disappears in a day. Nope, not going to give up on this forum. Maybe I need to post more often! I hope you still have a nice day Wild Bill.

[WildBill]

But I am not willing to be intimidated because I support withholding judgement of Mr. Zimmerman's guilt or innocence. Founders, administrators, moderators, and especially long time members don't accrue any special rights or privalages that are not detailed in the forum rules.

I don't have any opinion about your posts concerning this case or Mr. Zimmerman. My comment wasn't about your position or opinions, but rather your attitude.

Founders, administrators, moderators, and many long time members have earned something that is not detailed in the forum rules - respect.

[fishman]

Your right, Wild Bill. Respect is earned by many on this forum. It is also given to the new people on this forum until they lose it. Most everyone here is respected, most. I've been out of touch for a while, hope everyone is doing OK.