17y/o Killed By Neighborhood Watch/CHL

[cbunt1]

I've been biting my tongue here for months on this thing. I can't stand it any longer. I'll try to summarize my thoguhts, put them out there, and see what everyone thinks.

1) Zimmerman made tactical errors, and judgement errors. He's not "perfect" as some say, but I don't think he was specifically "looking for a fight" as others would say.
2) Martin was no innocent kid. He (apparently) was somewhere he had the right to be (Staying with a relative), but the way he allegedly ended up there tells us of his background. Not perfect...by any stretch.
3) Between the MSM Hype/spin/selling commercials, the prosecution's witch hunt, and the defense keeping their case close to the vest (we hope, if they're worth what they're being paid) there are KEY FACTS we're not yet privvy to. We can only make our judgements based on what we have.
4) GIven (1) and (2) above, the CRIMINAL side of this doesn't really boil down to the entire incident, but the last 20-30 seconds of Martin's troubled life. From what evidence we have available, it appears that Zimmerman had cause to be in fear for his life--the head injuries at least make this PLAUSIBLE.

In short, Zimmerman *MAY* be 'elgible' for a manslaughter trial, with a defense of justifiable homicide. Murder indicates premeditation, and I really don't think that's where we're at--at least not based on what *I* get out of what's been released.

In short, the CRIMINAL side of this boils down to "does Z have the right to defend himself with deadly force." ALL the rest of this--the part that has otherwise reasonable and like-minded people at each others' throats--is a CIVIL issue...the "Was it preventable" side of it, or the "Should he?" question.

All the discussion and arguement is valid, but lets remember the difference between a criminal act, and the civil side of it...criminal law is necesarily very narrowly defined, and asks/answers very narrow questions about specific PARTS of the incident.

We talk about the "TOTALITY of the circumstance," but that's not as much the subject of a criminal trial as it is the subject of "what really happened here."

And let us never forget that in the end, the facts are only an element of the truth--that the "whole truth" is more than just the raw facts...the FACT that Nolan Ryan threw more home runs than any other pitcher in history doesn't tell the TRUTH that he's the greatest pitcher of all time....

The only thing we can truly be certain of is that this case is destined to set precedents. The sad thing is that it didn't have to, but at this point, there's no way it can't.

Whew. Now that I've got that off my chest, I now return you to the heart of the discussion!

[recaffeination]

wrong choices that brought them together...the assault would not have happened...no matter WHO hit/grabbed/shoved who first...if you don't go to the party...you won't end up dancing...

That's a great point. If T didn't steal or do drugs or whatever got him kicked out of school this time, he would have been home in Miami. He wouldn't have been wandering around in Z's neighborhood hundreds of miles away. If he didn't steal and do drugs they never would have met. No party. No dancing.

[speedsix]

...that's true...but, given what we know of TM...wasn't gonna happen...

..."poor GZ" was SUPPOSED to be smarter...so much for that...

[BKRushing]

This case is a mess from the word go. It seems to me errors were made on both Zimmerman's and Martin's part. My understanding is Neighborhood Watch is not to leave their vehicle or behave in any manner that invites a confrontation. Zimmerman getting out of his vehicle to "keep an eye on Martin" violates that rule and that is the first step that set this whole thing into motion. Then from what I understand Martin made it home, but chose to double back and confront Zimmerman about why he was following him, which in my book is NEVER a smart move. You are home and in the clear. No need to prove your manhood by going back.

Ultimately, both of them could have done things differently which may not have resulted in Martin's death. Being African American myself, I hate that some have tried to turn this into a race issue where there really isn't one. This is little more than the meeting of two people at the wrong place, at the wrong time, making poor decisions at a critical moment.

Just my two cents.

[speedsix]

...refreshingly accurate, clear-headed, and well put...welcome to the forum...this may be the best post in all these many pages!!! You've got my vote!!!

[The Mad Moderate]

Come one can we get a lock already!? At this point we are chasing our own tails going around in circles, no one is going to chance their opinion on this. If you want to know whats in all these pages its simple, read one page and repeat.

[sjfcontrol]

Nobody is forcing you to read it. Unsubscribe if you don't want to follow it anymore.

[Keith B]

Come one can we get a lock already!? At this point we are chasing our own tails going around in circles, no one is going to chance their opinion on this. If you want to know whats in all these pages its simple, read one page and repeat.

Just ignore it if you don't want to read it

[speedsix]

...people who pull this trick usually do so AFTER they have THEIR say...

[mamabearCali]

This is not over.... Not by a long shot......don't lock the thread

[baldeagle]

As was said most of those are not a solid indicator of impairment.

Perhaps, but taken together with other signs, they become obvious to anyone who has observed the behavior. I'm curious. How do you know Zimmerman didn't have any of that experience?

Second I do not know where you got your definition but syrup afaik is codeine and is either mixed with a drink or in some cases used as a coating on a blunt.

Wikipedia has a pretty decent writeup http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Purple_drank" onclick="window.open(this.href);return false;

Codeine can only be obtained through prescription. So the kids substitute dextromethorphan, which can be found in over the counter cough suppressants (anything with DM in the name will do.)

Third I have lots of experience around people who are under the influence of various drugs and from a distance it is near impossible to tell if someone is high.

That's your experience. Mine is different.

PS
The mixture you describe is cough syrup with some things added for flavor, alcoholics are know to drink nyquil to get a buzz. And from my personal experience I can tell you mixing MJ with otc cough syrup does not have ANY effects similar to PCP.

DM is a dissociative, just like PCP, and in high enough doses, especially when combined with marijuana, can cause the same or similar symptoms as PCP.

Here's some info on the combination (scroll down to Cannabis) http://www.erowid.org/chemicals/dxm/faq ... xing.shtml" onclick="window.open(this.href);return false;

Here's a medical writeup http://www.tree.com/health/substance-ab ... amine.aspx" onclick="window.open(this.href);return false;

This is description of the side effects, which can include violent behavior, including reacting to any threat with extreme anger. http://www.erowid.org/chemicals/dxm/faq ... ects.shtml" onclick="window.open(this.href);return false;

TM had been using DXM for about a year. He felt it was a legal way to get high that would avoid the trouble associated with the marijuana that he was having.

[ScooterSissy]

...I don't know how one could say that they were navigating the legal system by themselves...with all that money and a lawyer...seems like they could get good legal advice...but then they'd have had to spend more of that money on what it was donated for...perish the thought...

What was the money donated for? Do you remember the simple web site that was put up? Can't say that I do, other than I remember it was very sparse on details as to what it was to be used for...

[ScooterSissy]

...whatever he was didn't start the ball rolling...Z's actions did...it would have made no difference WHAT TM's character was...if Z hadn't made the wrong choices that brought them together...the assault would not have happened...no matter WHO hit/grabbed/shoved who first...if you don't go to the party...you won't end up dancing...

Nope. The "wrong choice" was the choice to break the law.

I keep hearing nonsense like "don't go to the party, you won't end up dancing", and "don't start none, and there won't be none", but the law defines the "right and wrong" in this, not someone's opinion of what someone else should or should not have done, when that person had every legal right to do so.

[ScooterSissy]

....There are numerous signs that can be easily picked up from a reasonable distance; fidgety movements, constant meaningless motions of the hands, arms and legs, frequently dropping things, wandering aimlessly, gazing for lengthy periods of time at fixed objects, impaired coordination, chain smoking, etc., etc.

A lot of people, young and old, display the "signs" you describe - day and night. Let's go boys, git your guns and let's shoot 'em.

You know, it's statements like this that keep this nonsense rolling. He didn't see Trayvon under those conditions, and then "shoot 'em" - No sir!! He called the police, he gave them a description, he followed from a distance, and when he was asked to stop following, he complied.

For that, it appears he then got accosted by Martin, and attacked. If that's what happened, he's innocent. If, instead, he attacked Martin, he's guilty. It's really that simple, and this smokescreen of "he did something wrong, because I think it's wrong" is baloney.

To date, no one has shown anything that says he attacked Martin. There has been plenty to show that Martin attacked him.

[ScooterSissy]

....There are numerous signs that can be easily picked up from a reasonable distance; fidgety movements, constant meaningless motions of the hands, arms and legs, frequently dropping things, wandering aimlessly, gazing for lengthy periods of time at fixed objects, impaired coordination, chain smoking, etc., etc.

A lot of people, young and old, display the "signs" you describe - day and night. Let's go boys, git your guns and let's shoot 'em.

If they are bashing your head on the ground or threatening to....I say stop the threat to your life. TM was not shot for doing drugs, he was shot for attacking Z with lethal force.

If your head stayed in the vehicle where it belonged, it wouldn't get bashed on the ground. Okay, you can have the last word...and I mean it.

Please lock this thread up after mambearCali has her last word. I give up, she wins, enough already. Is there nothing on TV?

Why does his head belong in that vehicle? He had as much right to be on those grounds as Martin did!