RKBA Bill of Rights-2A Thread

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RPB
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RKBA Bill of Rights-2A Thread

#1

Post by RPB »

Rather than continue hijacks of other threads, perhaps we should start a designated RKBA Second Amendment or For what purpose was the Bill of Rights written history type thread?

Historical things of interest found could be pointed out by anyone, such as:


Our bill of rights was essentially copied from other bills of rights.
The purpose of which were to protect individual rights from Government.

Examples
English Bill of Rights
Virginia Declaration of Rights
etc.
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/United_Sta ... _of_Rights" onclick="window.open(this.href);return false;
The Bill of Rights is the collective name for the first ten amendments to the United States Constitution. These limitations serve to protect the natural rights of liberty and property. They guarantee a number of personal freedoms, limit the government's power ...
http://www.constitution.org/mil/rkba1982.htm" onclick="window.open(this.href);return false;
In Pennsylvania, a delegate argued "Congress may give us a select militia which will, in fact, be a standing army — or Congress, afraid of a general militia, may say there will be no militia at all. When a select militia is formed, the people in general may be disarmed." 34 Richard Henry Lee, in his widely read pamphlet "Letters from the Federal Farmer to the Republican" worried that the people might be disarmed by modeling the militia.
So, Amendment 2 was written. If a general militia/standing army is a necessary evil, (comma) the right of the People shall not be infringed ...
(Also, The People/property owners needed protection from Quartering armed Soldiers, hence, Amendment 3
was written about 45 minutes after Amendment 2, with Amendment 2 providing the ways and means to ensure Amendment 3 without day ... not waiting for a Court Decision on whether the soldiers/general militia were correct in eating all your food and taking your home ... and later write an apology card or get one from a HallMark Card Shop)


http://www.constitution.org/mil/rkba1982.htm" onclick="window.open(this.href);return false;
In Massachusetts, Sam Adams unsuccessfully pushed for a ratification conditioned on adoption of a Bill of Rights, beginning with a guarantee "That the said Constitution shall never be construed to authorize Congress to infringe the just liberty of the press or the rights of conscience; or to prevent the people of the United States who are peaceable citizens from keeping their own arms...." 40
No mention of any militia, but ... their own arms ... an Individual right, not as a part of a potential future militia nor army.


Prior to the Declaration of Independence : Indians right to bear arms in Virginia (Another branch of my family, in addition to the Adamses). The Adamses relate their roots to the Mayflower through the Bass family,
John Q Adams thought that Hannah Bass, granddaughter of John and Priscilla Alden, was the one who added new vigor to Adams family — known for its mere "industry, sobriety, and integrity" — and thereby affected his own makeup. http://www.sail1620.org/history/notable ... adams.html" onclick="window.open(this.href);return false;
[John Quincy Adams → John Adams → John Adams → Hannah Bass → Ruth Alden → JOHN ALDEN] http://www.mayflowerhistory.com/Genealo ... ndants.php" onclick="window.open(this.href);return false;
and the Nansemond Indians of Virginia are all surnamed Bass, and related to the same Basses the Adamses are related to)
http://thomas.loc.gov/cgi-bin/cpquery/? ... =TOC_64589&" onclick="window.open(this.href);return false;
14) in 1797, Norfolk County issued a certificate stating that William Bass was of Indian and English descent, and that his Indian line of ancestry ran directly back to the early 18th century elder in a traditionalist section of Nansemonds on the reservation;
Documents indicating the Virginia Indians' right to bear arms, prior to the Revolution, prior to the US Constitution and US BOR:
http://books.google.com/books?id=fUzd7L ... ms&f=false" onclick="window.open(this.href);return false;
Several pages, one says (page 161:
In 1727, William Bass Jr., one of Richard's sons, had to have an inquest at County Court to prove that he and his kinsmen were of Nansemond and English Descent only and that by the Treaty of The Middle Plantation in 1677 they were entitled to bear arms ...
(Basses have fought to keep this right for a long time as English Colonists->American Indians prior to the USA->American Citizens of the United States. You're welcome. :lol: )


Virginia Declaration of Rights
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/United_Sta ... _of_Rights" onclick="window.open(this.href);return false;
The Virginia Declaration of Rights, well-known to Madison, had already been a strong influence on the American Revolution ("all power is vested in, and consequently derived from, the people ...";[7] also "a majority of the community hath an indubitable, unalienable, and indefeasible right to reform, alter or abolish [the government]"). It had shaped the drafting of the United States Declaration of Independence a decade before the drafting of the Constitution, proclaiming that "all men are by nature equally free and independent, and have certain inherent rights of which ... [they cannot divest;] namely, the enjoyment of life and liberty, with the means of acquiring and possessing property, and pursuing and obtaining happiness and safety.
etc

I'm not trying to make this a genealogy page (sorry if it seemed so) this is related to Bill of rights in the US Constitution and BEFORE THAT ...the right to keep and bear arms ... it's just that those parts I know ... RKBA history from family oral history passed down from those who were there to kids/grandkids etc... Our family talks a lot about such things, always has now it's constant E-mails on a family e-mail list about gun rights (coming from others, NOT ME :smilelol5: ... I'm headed to a Bass family reunion in Lubbock next weekend for the branch which went Braintree Mass+Virginia->N Carolina->Tennessee->Arkansas->Texas


No DOCUMENT "gives" us the right of self defense ... Abel had it ... apparently he wasn't a Prepper ... Cain caught him unprepared. :tiphat:

Put whatever you want that relates to RKBA/BOR/2A/ Other nations bills of rights etc here... even if it was one of your relatives throwing tea off a boat (you don't have to admit to it) :mrgreen:
Last edited by RPB on Fri Jul 27, 2012 3:44 pm, edited 9 times in total.
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Re: Suggestion: RKBA Bill of Rights-2A Thread/Section

#2

Post by RPB »


History of/Relationship of ->
Hunting-Sporting use-coming to take our guns-gun control (by race) in the Americas


I'll keep this post short and limited to historical fact. (Even though history is not always politically correct)


Even Prior to the United States ... as shown in the post above, certain Indians had a treaty with England which "recognized" their right to keep and bear arms.
In Case you missed it:
In 1727, William Bass Jr., one of Richard's sons, had to have an inquest at County Court to prove that he and his kinsmen were of Nansemond and English Descent only and that by the Treaty of The Middle Plantation in 1677 they were entitled to bear arms ...

Time passes
United States is formed and the Bill Of Rights tacked on to get enough States to Ratify a Constitution
Time passes
One day, in 1857, a bunch of white settlers decided they'd FEEL SAFER if they disarmed the peaceful law-abiding Pamunkey Indians who lived nearby.
They went and took the Indians guns away.
The peaceful, law abiding Indians sent a letter/Petitioned the Governor of Virginia
Image
The Governor politician CLAIMED he had no power to intervene, but the Indians certainly had the right to keep and bear arms .... in fact they used them for hunting that's how they survived eating what they hunted on their own land, if they can't have their guns, they can't hunt, they would have to leave their property to get food... and he sent a letter to that effect
Trustees were not real happy with being wrong in taking the arms of the differently colored ...
So, they should correct the problem and institute an ANNUAL Census to keep records of those Indians, in case they should intermarry racially and need to be treated differently ... (lose the right to keep and bear arms)
So .... this begins the "justification/justified use" hunting/sporting use "requirement" or a "need" for a firearm.
And The Pamunkey incident was in 1857, after the Bill of Rights, so hunting was not the consideration for which the Second Amendment was written, but used later as justification to control people... "hunting/sporting use" as used by the BATF now ...
as if one must have a "need" or "justifiable use" to exercise a natural right to exist and live, including but not limited to food procurement and defense of one's self, which natural right governments cannot "give" but do issue documents recognizing that right.... unless they infringe upon that right to exercise control...
That is not a new tactic in gun control ... which is about control, not guns.


If interested,
Information on the mentioned Census etc is on the page following the screenshot above at page 197-198:
http://books.google.com/books?id=fUzd7L ... ms&f=false" onclick="window.open(this.href);return false;
Last edited by RPB on Mon Jan 28, 2013 3:00 pm, edited 1 time in total.
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Re: RKBA Bill of Rights-2A Thread

#3

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The Treaty of 1677 (or the Treaty Between Virginia And The Indians 1677 or Treaty of Middle Plantation)

If interested, more info on the 1677 treaty
http://www.powhatanmuseum.com/Historic_Documents.html" onclick="window.open(this.href);return false;

http://www.encyclopediavirginia.org/med ... 66mets.xml" onclick="window.open(this.href);return false;

http://www.charlescity.org/natives/topi ... eaties.php" onclick="window.open(this.href);return false;

http://www.marinersmuseum.org/sites/mic ... am026.html" onclick="window.open(this.href);return false;

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Treaty_of_1677" onclick="window.open(this.href);return false;

http://www.virtualjamestown.org/essays/ ... essay.html" onclick="window.open(this.href);return false;

http://www.nps.gov/history/history/onli ... ndixa2.htm" onclick="window.open(this.href);return false;

=================================================================================

Old "poll" brought this to mind as it asked "Does the Second Amendment give the right to bear arms?"

Technically, it doesn't ... and so that's why the anti-gun people worded it that way


If you vote that it did, repealing 2A repeals the right.
If you vote it does not give the right ... Eric Holder will claim you don't have a right "rlol"


Rights are not given by ink and paper, though they may be recognized on paper and ink.
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Re: RKBA Bill of Rights-2A Thread

#4

Post by cbunt1 »

RPB,

Fascinating information. It'll take me a while to sort through all of it, but I'm in complete agreement. Historically, it is clear (to me, from my limited research) that the INTENT of the 2nd Amendment is to guarantee (verify, codify, etc.) that the PEOPLE be armed against the government, specifically the STANDING ARMY (necessary evil). That little comma is significant....

The historical facts behind the "sporting use" and "need" will take some reading, but offhand, we "know" that the framers, having just come off the battlefields from a revolution, having taken arms against "their" country, and fought against tyrany and repression, really weren't considering squirrels and elk when they verified the rights of the PEOPLE to defend against the "well regulated militia."

When I hear the silly arguments from the anti's about the second amendment not being about machine guns and artillery, the hairs on my neck stand up...I beleive that the 2nd Amendment is EXACTLY about those things--that the PEOPLE be as well armed as the government that serves them (There--that's politically incorrect!)

For what it's worth, I too come from a long line of rebels...from the American Revolution, to both sides of the War Between the States (We truly had brother-against-brother then), and even a tie-in to the James/Younger and Hole in the Wall gangs.
American by birth, Texan by the grace of God!

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Re: RKBA Bill of Rights-2A Thread

#5

Post by speedsix »

...thanks for all the research/organization for our benefit...it'll make good reading and reference in the wee hours when I'm done sleeping but everyone else here isn't...appreciate the good work!!! :thumbs2:

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Re: RKBA Bill of Rights-2A Thread

#6

Post by RPB »

One thing I think should have been carried over to the United States Bill of Rights from the 1677 treaty
http://www.powhatanmuseum.com/Historic_Documents.html" onclick="window.open(this.href);return false;
XI. That every Indian fit to bare arms of the neighboring Nations in peace with us, have such quantity of powder and
shot allotted him as Right Honorable the Governor shall think fit on any occasion, and that such members of them be
ready to go out with our forces upon any march against the enemy and to Receive such pay for their good services,as shall be thought fit.
Free Ammo ....


Wishful thinking ... :mrgreen:
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speedsix
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Re: RKBA Bill of Rights-2A Thread

#7

Post by speedsix »

...I'd still have to buy mine...haven't got a drop of Indian blood in me... :grumble

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Re: RKBA Bill of Rights-2A Thread

#8

Post by RPB »

speedsix wrote:...I'd still have to buy mine...haven't got a drop of Indian blood in me... :grumble
Apparently it isn't for all Indians anyway, just those with bare arms .... I need to shave ...
XI. That every Indian fit to bare arms ...
:biggrinjester:

Oh neat, a relative just sent me ...
Congratulations! Your Mayflower application has been approved! I just received the report this afternoon. Your long wait is finally over and all your the research you did paid off. I will be sending you a membership certificate and a copy of your approved application.

Welcome to the Mayflower Society!

Best regards,

Laurie Behn
TX Co-Historian
http://www.themayflowersociety.com/" onclick="window.open(this.href);return false;
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Re: RKBA Bill of Rights-2A Thread

#9

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3rd Amendment
No Soldier shall, in time of peace be quartered in any house, without the consent of the Owner, nor in time of war, but in a manner to be prescribed by law.

Soldiers being a necessary evil for Defense, but not trusted, the right of the property owning people to defend themselves, their families from a wife being kidnapped, held for ransome to force quartering of soldiers/militiamen, the right to bear arms equal to that of the militiamen, shall not be infringed

2nd Amendment
A well regulated militia being necessary to the security of a free state, the right of the people to keep and bear arms shall not be infringed.

Written 45 minutes apart while discussing both issues.
============================================================================================

I dunno why Liberals can't understand this, it's color coded for the simple-minded now.
For the historical facts of "WHY" scroll up.

In USA VS MILLER, the Supreme Court said MILITARY STYLE WEAPONS are exactly what is defended by the second amendment that we have the right to keep and bear. See viewtopic.php?f=94&t=60917&p=748723&hil ... er#p748610" onclick="window.open(this.href);return false;
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Re: RKBA Bill of Rights-2A Thread

#10

Post by RPB »

[youtube][/youtube]

Senate Document 144 and Treaty of 1677 aka Treaty Between Virginia And The Indians 1677 or Treaty of Middle Plantation

And http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Treaty_of_1677" onclick="window.open(this.href);return false;
The treaty recognized the Indians' right to keep and bear arms and the Indians were supplied ammunition in article XI. of the treaty.
My question is: Is the USA or Virginia to honor the treaty or do I send off to the U.K. for my free ammo?
:biggrinjester:
http://www.marinersmuseum.org/sites/mic ... am026.html" onclick="window.open(this.href);return false;
Because this treaty is still in force, the Pamunkey and Mattaponi still pay "tribute" of game to the governor of Virginia each autumn.
Seriously, if you find out where I am supposed to get my free GubbaMint supplied ammo ... lemme know. It'd be funny If they stopped passing it out and we got awarded 200 years worth of ammo back pay ...
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