17y/o Killed By Neighborhood Watch/CHL

[speedsix]

...as to the trial, and the media, and all those advancing their causes with this circus...yes...it's being all scwewed up and twisted...the CRIMINAL part of this didn't begin until someone assaulted someone else...that's all later...
...what I was posting about is kinda like the guy who had a loud party nearby...and, instead of calling the police and letting them handle it...got his gun and camera and strutted over to settle it himself...looking for trouble...he found it...and right about now, he'd probably give a significant portion of his anatomy to have made the right choice...and for the whole thing never to have happened...

[mamabearCali]

Tactically Zimmerman made mistakes--no doubt. But none of his mistakes were criminal. We are all capable of making tactical mistakes in dynamic situations no matter what our training......To quote a wise saying "let him that thinks he stands take heed lest he fall."

What was criminal was TM jumping him and beating his head on the ground. What is additionally criminal is the politically motivated persecution of the Zimmerman family. I pray they stand strong and wait for their day in court because their side of the story needs telling.

Speedsix, most of the time I agree with you, but in this I think you are grasping. Just because Zimmerman got out of his car to observe and keep an eye on a suspicious person does not mean he caused the situation. Mr. Martin bears that blame. If Martin had stayed by his house, which his friend Dee Dee says he was or gone into his house (like a reasonable person) none of this would have happened either. Instead he doubled back (according to Dee Dee) to confront Zimmerman and criminally attacked him--if anyone is a catalyst here I have to say it was Martin.

edited for clarification

[speedsix]

...I agree...I have a very FIRM grasp on what happened...if Z had done what he was trained to do...and hadn't done what he was trained NOT to do...nothing would have happened...Z didn't just get out of his car to observe and keep an eye on a suspicious person...he followed him to the point that TM ran...and chased him...instead of making the call to the police (like a reasonable person) and letting THEM do their job...Martin couldn't have jumped him if he'd done what he'd been trained to do and nothing else...he tipped the first domino...his actions after he made the 911 call stimulated TM to do what he did...had he just sat in the car, even, and let TM walk on, there would have been no confrontation...

[The Mad Moderate]

...I agree...I have a very FIRM grasp on what happened...if Z had done what he was trained to do...and hadn't done what he was trained NOT to do...nothing would have happened...Z didn't just get out of his car to observe and keep an eye on a suspicious person...he followed him to the point that TM ran...and chased him...instead of making the call to the police (like a reasonable person) and letting THEM do their job...Martin couldn't have jumped him if he'd done what he'd been trained to do and nothing else...he tipped the first domino...his actions after he made the 911 call stimulated TM to do what he did...had he just sat in the car, even, and let TM walk on, there would have been no confrontation...

Yeah but you can't let facts or logic get in the way. How many people here would feel threatened if they were being followed by someone late at night and take actions to defend themselves from said threat.

[speedsix]

...that's me with BOTH hands in the air on that question...I can't run(and breathe at the same time)...
...you bring up an interesting whatif...what if TM had called the police and said that he was being followed by a man, and had run from him, and the man had chased him...and the police had rolled up on Z all out of breath and armed, and quite a ways from his vehicle...wonder what the conversation would have been then...

[baldeagle]

...I think a lot of us have done more than just observe...but to follow a suspicious person till he runs, then chase him...creating a dangerous situation where there was none, and spooking him before the police had a chance to respond and interact with him...I don't think so...not on a public street where you have no authority to do so...Z wasn't being civic-minded...he was going against the rules of his own NW instead of following them...and this is where we find him...most of us who have done a little or a lot more than observe weren't under constraint by our own agreement NOT to act...he was...that's why I won't participate in a NW program...I think my judgement is better than a blanket prohibition...but if I DO something...and I get my tail beat...it'll be my fault for going beyond picking up the phone...

That's not what GZ did.

[speedsix]

...that's what he did...listen to his 911 call...and here's just one report of what Z told police he did...
http://www.nj.com/news/index.ssf/2012/0 ... in_tr.html" onclick="window.open(this.href);return false;

...here's the affidavit filed in court by the prosecutor...so far, it hasn't been proven false...we don't have any more "official" info than this...unless one of us were there...

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[Dave2]

...that's what he did...listen to his 911 call...and here's just one report of what Z told police he did...
http://www.nj.com/news/index.ssf/2012/0 ... in_tr.html" onclick="window.open(this.href);return false;

...here's the affidavit filed in court by the prosecutor...so far, it hasn't been proven false...we don't have any more "official" info than this...unless one of us were there...

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Last I heard, there was evidence suggesting Zimmerman was jumped as he was walking back to his car. So unless you know something I don't, I'm calling Zimmerman's actions "unwise, perhaps even foolish", but I'm not going to say he was definitively legally or morally wrong (or right) until I see all the evidence.

[speedsix]

...legally wrong...I haven't been talking about...morally wrong...by his own words...
...that he was walking back to his car...maybe so...after what??? following and chasing TM...

...we will NEVER see all the evidence...we have to take what's made public as it is made public...

[baldeagle]

...I agree...I have a very FIRM grasp on what happened...if Z had done what he was trained to do...and hadn't done what he was trained NOT to do...nothing would have happened...Z didn't just get out of his car to observe and keep an eye on a suspicious person...he followed him to the point that TM ran...and chased him...instead of making the call to the police (like a reasonable person) and letting THEM do their job...Martin couldn't have jumped him if he'd done what he'd been trained to do and nothing else...he tipped the first domino...his actions after he made the 911 call stimulated TM to do what he did...had he just sat in the car, even, and let TM walk on, there would have been no confrontation...

That's completely wrong. If you listen to the recorded interview of Trayvon's girl friend "Dede", you will find out that Trayvon "lost" GZ and made it all the way to his father's house. 2 minutes later the altercation started 70 yards away from Trayvon's father's house. GZ did not follow Trayvon. Trayvon did not run because GZ was following him. GZ did not chase Trayvon. He was returning to his vehicle after getting an address for the police dispatcher when he was attacked by Trayvon. You clearly do not have "a very FROM grasp" on what happened at all.

[speedsix]

...well, if you want to believe one of her several stories over Z's statement to the police...have at it...she originally said quite differently...and only came forward after being contacted by TM's support team...Z's statement of what he did given to the police in his own words, the 911 call, and the account in the indictment carry a bit more weight in my mind than his girlfriend's stories...I'll cling bitterly to my "FROM" grasp, as you call it...and you can ignore all the evidence that discredits her stories...long as it proves your point of view...

[jocat54]

...I wasn't talking about the case, or the charges, or over-charging...I was talking about his wrong choices started the chain of events...and that was his fault...had he done what he was trained to do and made a phone call and that's all...the rest of the evening would have been uneventful...at least for him...what is confusing about that??? What's confusing is you can't/won't separate his initial choices/actions from the crimes that happened because of them...my post isn't about how I would like the case to come out...

...another example...just as simple...if you don't poke a hornet's nest hanging by your door...you most likely won't get stung...call the exterminator...it's his job...if you tackle it...you didn't break any law...but it'll hurt just as much as if you had...and, later, you'll probably say you wish you 'd left it alone...

Now I'm double confused. I stated much earlier in this gigantic thread that I thought he shouldn't have gotten out of the vehicle. That it wasn't the wisest choice. I fully agree with you on that, I promise. I guess the reason I'm so fired up about this whole thing is two-fold: one, the media WANTS him to be convicted of murder so that they can use that as precedence to clamp down on citizens defending themselves; the mainstream media, like most liberals, HATE self-defense...two, the prosecution and others are using him getting out of the vehicle to help underpin their murder charge against him, and that is where I and so many others disagree with them.

Where would all this be if Zimmerman hadn't gotten out of his car?

[Oldgringo]

Neighborhood Watch. What part of "Watch" don't y'all understand?

One guy is dead and the other is taking a very expensive ride to the Cross Bar Hilton. Rightly or wrongly, it should never have happened, and it wouldn't have happened, if Z had stayed in his vehicle and "watched".

[speedsix]

...amazingly simple...yet you know what "they" say: there is none so blind, as he who will not see...

[Heartland Patriot]

That's fine...like I've said before, I have MY CHL to defend my loved ones, select friends, and myself, and perhaps my property, depending on what it may be. Say what you will about me, if your house or car is getting busted into, I'll let my fingers do the walking on the phone keys...and that's it. Everyone loves bad guys ruling the streets and calling the shots, and makes the laws to be on the side of the bad guys, and the press loves the bad guys too and values the lives of bad guys more than the lives of the general, non-criminal citizenry...fine...I won't get in their way...unless they get directly in MY way in an attempt to do violence to me or my loved ones. I spent enough time in Northern California, I learned my lessons that liberals are mighty, wise and elite and their rhetoric is lord and master. It's y'all's world, I'm just passing through it.