17y/o Killed By Neighborhood Watch/CHL

[speedsix]

...no, it's nothing at all like that...driving down the road is a perfectly normal thing to do...that's not a good example of what I said...

...Z, on the other hand, acted AGAINST the norm...acted against the rules of the group he was a "captain" of...took on the role of supersleuth...
...normal for a citizen and RIGHT for a trained member of specifically the Sanford PD Neighborhood Watch is to observe and report to the police suspicious behaviour...and then to go about your business and let the POLICE track, follow, and chase down the suspicious one...

...an ACCURATE example of what I said would be for you to have a suspicious solicitor come to your door and ask hinky questions...then leave...
...NORMAL(wise and right) would be for you to call the police and give your version of the reasons you were suspicious and a good description and the direction he left towards...
...ABNORMAL, FOOLISH, and (here's that word that noone wants to use) WRONG is to leave your house and follow him down the street, chase him when he runs...and if he jumps you...you caused the whole situation...by doing something you had no business doing...call it in and go back to your game and he can't jump you, now can he???

...how many times have our parents told us...keep your nose in your own business and don't be where you have no business being...they weren't saying we were breaking a law by doing otherwise...they were saying if you look for trouble...you'll find it...it's called using good common sense and making wise decisions...or being stupid....

...would you train and instruct your sons to do what Z did, or to do what the NW instructed him to do...call it in and don't get physically involved...???

I wonder...

[Oldgringo]

...no, it's nothing at all like that...driving down the road is a perfectly normal thing to do...that's not a good example of what I said...

...Z, on the other hand, acted AGAINST the norm...acted against the rules of the group he was a "captain" of...took on the role of supersleuth...
...normal for a citizen and RIGHT for a trained member of specifically the Sanford PD Neighborhood Watch is to observe and report to the police suspicious behaviour...and then to go about your business and let the POLICE track, follow, and chase down the suspicious one...

...an ACCURATE example of what I said would be for you to have a suspicious solicitor come to your door and ask hinky questions...then leave...
...NORMAL(wise and right) would be for you to call the police and give your version of the reasons you were suspicious and a good description and the direction he left towards...
...ABNORMAL, FOOLISH, and (here's that word that noone wants to use) WRONG is to leave your house and follow him down the street, chase him when he runs...and if he jumps you...you caused the whole situation...by doing something you had no business doing...call it in and go back to your game and he can't jump you, now can he???

...how many times have our parents told us...keep your nose in your own business and don't be where you have no business being...they weren't saying we were breaking a law by doing otherwise...they were saying if you look for trouble...you'll find it...it's called using good common sense and making wise decisions...or being stupid....

...would you train and instruct your sons to do what Z did, or to do what the NW instructed him to do...call it in and don't get physically involved...???

I wonder...

Speedo, you are spot on correct on all counts, IMO. Something that can not be overstated in all CHL classes is that one's newly acquired CH license is not a Batman license nor does it confer any "hero" responsibility on the licensee. For that matter, this subject could even be repeated in some form as a test question.

[Heartland Patriot]

...no, it's nothing at all like that...driving down the road is a perfectly normal thing to do...that's not a good example of what I said...

...Z, on the other hand, acted AGAINST the norm...acted against the rules of the group he was a "captain" of...took on the role of supersleuth...
...normal for a citizen and RIGHT for a trained member of specifically the Sanford PD Neighborhood Watch is to observe and report to the police suspicious behaviour...and then to go about your business and let the POLICE track, follow, and chase down the suspicious one...

...an ACCURATE example of what I said would be for you to have a suspicious solicitor come to your door and ask hinky questions...then leave...
...NORMAL(wise and right) would be for you to call the police and give your version of the reasons you were suspicious and a good description and the direction he left towards...
...ABNORMAL, FOOLISH, and (here's that word that noone wants to use) WRONG is to leave your house and follow him down the street, chase him when he runs...and if he jumps you...you caused the whole situation...by doing something you had no business doing...call it in and go back to your game and he can't jump you, now can he???

...how many times have our parents told us...keep your nose in your own business and don't be where you have no business being...they weren't saying we were breaking a law by doing otherwise...they were saying if you look for trouble...you'll find it...it's called using good common sense and making wise decisions...or being stupid....

...would you train and instruct your sons to do what Z did, or to do what the NW instructed him to do...call it in and don't get physically involved...???

I wonder...

Speed, you and I agree on much on this forum. But I am disagreeing with you on this in the following manner. I would NOT have done what GZ did because I'm not that kind of guy. I don't trust anyone or anything, and I certainly don't trust "the law" (not talking about LEO's here, but about "the system" in general). That is me, I'm highly political and very wary because of it. I EXPECT someone out there to do their best to hose me over for the least little thing for THEIR personal gain. However, not EVERYONE is like me. SOME people believe that they not only have a right, but a duty, to put effort out to change things for the better in their community. I'm not debating whether they are right or wrong, just saying that is how some folks are. I don't believe GZ thought he was doing anything wrong. I think he thought that his community had been messed with and he might be able to help do something about it. So, okay, he was proven wrong...the situation turned really bad. And now there are more people like me who don't trust others any further than I can pick them up and throw them (and I'm not a big guy). All I can say is that the only winners in this will be such wonderful lovely incredible human beings like Al Sharpton and Jesse Jackson; the rest of us lose due to our crooked, broken system...in any event, the State of Florida CHARGED GZ with second degree MURDER...and I disagree with you because nothing that I have read or heard leads me to believe that there was one bit of DEPRAVITY in what he did...stupid, maybe...depraved, not in the least.

[speedsix]

...no, it's nothing at all like that...driving down the road is a perfectly normal thing to do...that's not a good example of what I said...

...Z, on the other hand, acted AGAINST the norm...acted against the rules of the group he was a "captain" of...took on the role of supersleuth...
...normal for a citizen and RIGHT for a trained member of specifically the Sanford PD Neighborhood Watch is to observe and report to the police suspicious behaviour...and then to go about your business and let the POLICE track, follow, and chase down the suspicious one...

...an ACCURATE example of what I said would be for you to have a suspicious solicitor come to your door and ask hinky questions...then leave...
...NORMAL(wise and right) would be for you to call the police and give your version of the reasons you were suspicious and a good description and the direction he left towards...
...ABNORMAL, FOOLISH, and (here's that word that noone wants to use) WRONG is to leave your house and follow him down the street, chase him when he runs...and if he jumps you...you caused the whole situation...by doing something you had no business doing...call it in and go back to your game and he can't jump you, now can he???

...how many times have our parents told us...keep your nose in your own business and don't be where you have no business being...they weren't saying we were breaking a law by doing otherwise...they were saying if you look for trouble...you'll find it...it's called using good common sense and making wise decisions...or being stupid....

...would you train and instruct your sons to do what Z did, or to do what the NW instructed him to do...call it in and don't get physically involved...???

I wonder...

Speed, you and I agree on much on this forum. But I am disagreeing with you on this in the following manner. I would NOT have done what GZ did because I'm not that kind of guy. I don't trust anyone or anything, and I certainly don't trust "the law" (not talking about LEO's here, but about "the system" in general). That is me, I'm highly political and very wary because of it. I EXPECT someone out there to do their best to hose me over for the least little thing for THEIR personal gain. However, not EVERYONE is like me. SOME people believe that they not only have a right, but a duty, to put effort out to change things for the better in their community. I'm not debating whether they are right or wrong, just saying that is how some folks are. I don't believe GZ thought he was doing anything wrong. I think he thought that his community had been messed with and he might be able to help do something about it. So, okay, he was proven wrong...the situation turned really bad. And now there are more people like me who don't trust others any further than I can pick them up and throw them (and I'm not a big guy). All I can say is that the only winners in this will be such wonderful lovely incredible human beings like Al Sharpton and Jesse Jackson; the rest of us lose due to our crooked, broken system...in any event, the State of Florida CHARGED GZ with second degree MURDER...and I disagree with you because nothing that I have read or heard leads me to believe that there was one bit of DEPRAVITY in what he did...stupid, maybe...depraved, not in the least.

...now that word DEPRAVITY comes from YOU...not ME....how can you disagree with something that I never said in the first place???

...Z, being a NW captain, KNEW BETTER than to do what he did...he didn't act out of ignorance...he set up the situation where the assault and shooting could happen because he acted contrary to the instructions of the NW training he'd been given...and that's not only STUPID...it's WRONG...(that's the word I used)...

[clarionite]

Heartland Patriot,

I'm as jaded as the next guy, and it's served me well for years. But I've still got that feeling that if we all do what little we can, maybe the world might be a little better place tomorrow. I guess that comes from being dropped on my head as a kid. If what I'm hearing about George trying to keep visual contact with the guy is correct, and he didn't confront the guy... Then I don't think he even did anything stupid. When we all become afraid of something as simple as observing something we feel is odd or out of place because we're going to be judged as being at fault if someone starts trouble with us... then the world is most definitely not a better place. I guess I'm one of the stupid ones. I've stepped in and done more than just observe in several occasions. Maybe I'm lucky. But I feel that I made someone's life better with my actions.

[Heartland Patriot]

...no, it's nothing at all like that...driving down the road is a perfectly normal thing to do...that's not a good example of what I said...

...Z, on the other hand, acted AGAINST the norm...acted against the rules of the group he was a "captain" of...took on the role of supersleuth...
...normal for a citizen and RIGHT for a trained member of specifically the Sanford PD Neighborhood Watch is to observe and report to the police suspicious behaviour...and then to go about your business and let the POLICE track, follow, and chase down the suspicious one...

...an ACCURATE example of what I said would be for you to have a suspicious solicitor come to your door and ask hinky questions...then leave...
...NORMAL(wise and right) would be for you to call the police and give your version of the reasons you were suspicious and a good description and the direction he left towards...
...ABNORMAL, FOOLISH, and (here's that word that noone wants to use) WRONG is to leave your house and follow him down the street, chase him when he runs...and if he jumps you...you caused the whole situation...by doing something you had no business doing...call it in and go back to your game and he can't jump you, now can he???

...how many times have our parents told us...keep your nose in your own business and don't be where you have no business being...they weren't saying we were breaking a law by doing otherwise...they were saying if you look for trouble...you'll find it...it's called using good common sense and making wise decisions...or being stupid....

...would you train and instruct your sons to do what Z did, or to do what the NW instructed him to do...call it in and don't get physically involved...???

I wonder...

Speed, you and I agree on much on this forum. But I am disagreeing with you on this in the following manner. I would NOT have done what GZ did because I'm not that kind of guy. I don't trust anyone or anything, and I certainly don't trust "the law" (not talking about LEO's here, but about "the system" in general). That is me, I'm highly political and very wary because of it. I EXPECT someone out there to do their best to hose me over for the least little thing for THEIR personal gain. However, not EVERYONE is like me. SOME people believe that they not only have a right, but a duty, to put effort out to change things for the better in their community. I'm not debating whether they are right or wrong, just saying that is how some folks are. I don't believe GZ thought he was doing anything wrong. I think he thought that his community had been messed with and he might be able to help do something about it. So, okay, he was proven wrong...the situation turned really bad. And now there are more people like me who don't trust others any further than I can pick them up and throw them (and I'm not a big guy). All I can say is that the only winners in this will be such wonderful lovely incredible human beings like Al Sharpton and Jesse Jackson; the rest of us lose due to our crooked, broken system...in any event, the State of Florida CHARGED GZ with second degree MURDER...and I disagree with you because nothing that I have read or heard leads me to believe that there was one bit of DEPRAVITY in what he did...stupid, maybe...depraved, not in the least.

...now that word DEPRAVITY comes from YOU...not ME....how can you disagree with something that I never said in the first place???

...Z, being a NW captain, KNEW BETTER than to do what he did...he didn't act out of ignorance...he set up the situation where the assault and shooting could happen because he acted contrary to the instructions of the NW training he'd been given...and that's not only STUPID...it's WRONG...(that's the word I used)...

Speed, the word DEPRAVITY (or some version of it) comes out of the second degree murder charge in the State of Florida. Why did they charge him with that? For POLITICAL REASONS. If its what YOU said, that GZ was culpable through his actions leading to the death of TM, then it should have been manslaughter, right? All I'm trying to get at is that the charges should fit the crime...you're saying GZ was stupid and that is what led to the TM kid being killed...well, that ain't a depraved murder.

[speedsix]

...I think a lot of us have done more than just observe...but to follow a suspicious person till he runs, then chase him...creating a dangerous situation where there was none, and spooking him before the police had a chance to respond and interact with him...I don't think so...not on a public street where you have no authority to do so...Z wasn't being civic-minded...he was going against the rules of his own NW instead of following them...and this is where we find him...most of us who have done a little or a lot more than observe weren't under constraint by our own agreement NOT to act...he was...that's why I won't participate in a NW program...I think my judgement is better than a blanket prohibition...but if I DO something...and I get my tail beat...it'll be my fault for going beyond picking up the phone...

[clarionite]

...I think a lot of us have done more than just observe...but to follow a suspicious person till he runs, then chase him...creating a dangerous situation where there was none, and spooking him before the police had a chance to respond and interact with him...I don't think so...not on a public street where you have no authority to do so...Z wasn't being civic-minded...he was going against the rules of his own NW instead of following them...and this is where we find him...most of us who have done a little or a lot more than observe weren't under constraint by our own agreement NOT to act...he was...that's why I won't participate in a NW program...I think my judgement is better than a blanket prohibition...but if I DO something...and I get my tail beat...it'll be my fault for going beyond picking up the phone...

And if you get your tail beat... The responding officers can and should (probably will) charge the one who did the beating. If the beating progresses to your head being slammed into the ground and you feel that your life is in danger... you have the right (and I believe duty) to protect yourself.

[speedsix]

...no, it's nothing at all like that...driving down the road is a perfectly normal thing to do...that's not a good example of what I said...

...Z, on the other hand, acted AGAINST the norm...acted against the rules of the group he was a "captain" of...took on the role of supersleuth...
...normal for a citizen and RIGHT for a trained member of specifically the Sanford PD Neighborhood Watch is to observe and report to the police suspicious behaviour...and then to go about your business and let the POLICE track, follow, and chase down the suspicious one...

...an ACCURATE example of what I said would be for you to have a suspicious solicitor come to your door and ask hinky questions...then leave...
...NORMAL(wise and right) would be for you to call the police and give your version of the reasons you were suspicious and a good description and the direction he left towards...
...ABNORMAL, FOOLISH, and (here's that word that noone wants to use) WRONG is to leave your house and follow him down the street, chase him when he runs...and if he jumps you...you caused the whole situation...by doing something you had no business doing...call it in and go back to your game and he can't jump you, now can he???

...how many times have our parents told us...keep your nose in your own business and don't be where you have no business being...they weren't saying we were breaking a law by doing otherwise...they were saying if you look for trouble...you'll find it...it's called using good common sense and making wise decisions...or being stupid....

...would you train and instruct your sons to do what Z did, or to do what the NW instructed him to do...call it in and don't get physically involved...???

I wonder...

Speed, you and I agree on much on this forum. But I am disagreeing with you on this in the following manner. I would NOT have done what GZ did because I'm not that kind of guy. I don't trust anyone or anything, and I certainly don't trust "the law" (not talking about LEO's here, but about "the system" in general). That is me, I'm highly political and very wary because of it. I EXPECT someone out there to do their best to hose me over for the least little thing for THEIR personal gain. However, not EVERYONE is like me. SOME people believe that they not only have a right, but a duty, to put effort out to change things for the better in their community. I'm not debating whether they are right or wrong, just saying that is how some folks are. I don't believe GZ thought he was doing anything wrong. I think he thought that his community had been messed with and he might be able to help do something about it. So, okay, he was proven wrong...the situation turned really bad. And now there are more people like me who don't trust others any further than I can pick them up and throw them (and I'm not a big guy). All I can say is that the only winners in this will be such wonderful lovely incredible human beings like Al Sharpton and Jesse Jackson; the rest of us lose due to our crooked, broken system...in any event, the State of Florida CHARGED GZ with second degree MURDER...and I disagree with you because nothing that I have read or heard leads me to believe that there was one bit of DEPRAVITY in what he did...stupid, maybe...depraved, not in the least.

...now that word DEPRAVITY comes from YOU...not ME....how can you disagree with something that I never said in the first place???

...Z, being a NW captain, KNEW BETTER than to do what he did...he didn't act out of ignorance...he set up the situation where the assault and shooting could happen because he acted contrary to the instructions of the NW training he'd been given...and that's not only STUPID...it's WRONG...(that's the word I used)...

Speed, the word DEPRAVITY (or some version of it) comes out of the second degree murder charge in the State of Florida. Why did they charge him with that? For POLITICAL REASONS. If its what YOU said, that GZ was culpable through his actions leading to the death of TM, then it should have been manslaughter, right? All I'm trying to get at is that the charges should fit the crime...you're saying GZ was stupid and that is what led to the TM kid being killed...well, that ain't a depraved murder.

...you're having the same "problem" as others have had here...you keep introducing things into the discussion that I never said...I have not made reference to any criminal wrongdoing or criminal charges AT ALL...I NEVER said that "GZ was culpable through his actions leading to the death of TM" or anything CLOSE TO THAT...stop reading into what I say and misquoting me...I said nothing about manslaughter, charging anyone, crime, or murder...just READ WHAT I SAID...if you want to disagree with me...let it be about something I SAID...don't put words in my mouth...
...I said CLEARLY that if he'd have done the right thing based on common sense, following and obeying his NW training, and had not tried to play cop, that the situation NEVER WOULD HAVE HAPPENED in the first place...he would have made the appropriate call and gone on to the store or home or wherever he said he was going...and his path and TM's would not have crossed...and there would have been NO assault...NO shooting...and, unless the police found a reason when they arrived to do THEIR job and locate and check out TM as a reported suspicious person...no arrest...it's not hard...just read my words and quit changing what I said...

[speedsix]

...I think a lot of us have done more than just observe...but to follow a suspicious person till he runs, then chase him...creating a dangerous situation where there was none, and spooking him before the police had a chance to respond and interact with him...I don't think so...not on a public street where you have no authority to do so...Z wasn't being civic-minded...he was going against the rules of his own NW instead of following them...and this is where we find him...most of us who have done a little or a lot more than observe weren't under constraint by our own agreement NOT to act...he was...that's why I won't participate in a NW program...I think my judgement is better than a blanket prohibition...but if I DO something...and I get my tail beat...it'll be my fault for going beyond picking up the phone...

And if you get your tail beat... The responding officers can and should (probably will) charge the one who did the beating. If the beating progresses to your head being slammed into the ground and you feel that your life is in danger... you have the right (and I believe duty) to protect yourself.

...that's exactly right...and if exactly what you said happens...it will be because I chose to intervene in something beyond making a phone call...I chose to put myself in a situation where those things could happen...and my Mama would say "Why in the world did you get involved with that? That's what the police's job is to do...and you ain't(my Mama still says 'ain't')the police"... and I'd have to say, "You're right, Mama...what was I thinkin'?????"

[Heartland Patriot]

...no, it's nothing at all like that...driving down the road is a perfectly normal thing to do...that's not a good example of what I said...

...Z, on the other hand, acted AGAINST the norm...acted against the rules of the group he was a "captain" of...took on the role of supersleuth...
...normal for a citizen and RIGHT for a trained member of specifically the Sanford PD Neighborhood Watch is to observe and report to the police suspicious behaviour...and then to go about your business and let the POLICE track, follow, and chase down the suspicious one...

...an ACCURATE example of what I said would be for you to have a suspicious solicitor come to your door and ask hinky questions...then leave...
...NORMAL(wise and right) would be for you to call the police and give your version of the reasons you were suspicious and a good description and the direction he left towards...
...ABNORMAL, FOOLISH, and (here's that word that noone wants to use) WRONG is to leave your house and follow him down the street, chase him when he runs...and if he jumps you...you caused the whole situation...by doing something you had no business doing...call it in and go back to your game and he can't jump you, now can he???

...how many times have our parents told us...keep your nose in your own business and don't be where you have no business being...they weren't saying we were breaking a law by doing otherwise...they were saying if you look for trouble...you'll find it...it's called using good common sense and making wise decisions...or being stupid....

...would you train and instruct your sons to do what Z did, or to do what the NW instructed him to do...call it in and don't get physically involved...???

I wonder...

Speed, you and I agree on much on this forum. But I am disagreeing with you on this in the following manner. I would NOT have done what GZ did because I'm not that kind of guy. I don't trust anyone or anything, and I certainly don't trust "the law" (not talking about LEO's here, but about "the system" in general). That is me, I'm highly political and very wary because of it. I EXPECT someone out there to do their best to hose me over for the least little thing for THEIR personal gain. However, not EVERYONE is like me. SOME people believe that they not only have a right, but a duty, to put effort out to change things for the better in their community. I'm not debating whether they are right or wrong, just saying that is how some folks are. I don't believe GZ thought he was doing anything wrong. I think he thought that his community had been messed with and he might be able to help do something about it. So, okay, he was proven wrong...the situation turned really bad. And now there are more people like me who don't trust others any further than I can pick them up and throw them (and I'm not a big guy). All I can say is that the only winners in this will be such wonderful lovely incredible human beings like Al Sharpton and Jesse Jackson; the rest of us lose due to our crooked, broken system...in any event, the State of Florida CHARGED GZ with second degree MURDER...and I disagree with you because nothing that I have read or heard leads me to believe that there was one bit of DEPRAVITY in what he did...stupid, maybe...depraved, not in the least.

...now that word DEPRAVITY comes from YOU...not ME....how can you disagree with something that I never said in the first place???

...Z, being a NW captain, KNEW BETTER than to do what he did...he didn't act out of ignorance...he set up the situation where the assault and shooting could happen because he acted contrary to the instructions of the NW training he'd been given...and that's not only STUPID...it's WRONG...(that's the word I used)...

Speed, the word DEPRAVITY (or some version of it) comes out of the second degree murder charge in the State of Florida. Why did they charge him with that? For POLITICAL REASONS. If its what YOU said, that GZ was culpable through his actions leading to the death of TM, then it should have been manslaughter, right? All I'm trying to get at is that the charges should fit the crime...you're saying GZ was stupid and that is what led to the TM kid being killed...well, that ain't a depraved murder.

...you're having the same "problem" as others have had here...you keep introducing things into the discussion that I never said...I have not made reference to any criminal wrongdoing or criminal charges AT ALL...I NEVER said that "GZ was culpable through his actions leading to the death of TM" or anything CLOSE TO THAT...stop reading into what I say and misquoting me...I said nothing about manslaughter, charging anyone, crime, or murder...just READ WHAT I SAID...if you want to disagree with me...let it be about something I SAID...don't put words in my mouth...
...I said CLEARLY that if he'd have done the right thing based on common sense, following and obeying his NW training, and had not tried to play cop, that the situation NEVER WOULD HAVE HAPPENED in the first place...he would have made the appropriate call and gone on to the store or home or wherever he said he was going...and his path and TM's would not have crossed...and there would have been NO assault...NO shooting...and, unless the police found a reason when they arrived to do THEIR job and locate and check out TM as a reported suspicious person...no arrest...it's not hard...just read my words and quit changing what I said...

Then I am at quite a loss to understand what you want to happen to GZ. I'll say I want the man off the charges because I believe he was over-charged. I understand you don't like what he did and I understand that you think he far overstepped his bounds on this. However, I will admit that I am confused as to where you are going with your argument and how you would like to see this case come out. My apologies.

[clarionite]

I live in a nice quiet neighborhood. That's not by chance. I searched for a nice quiet neighborhood. I pay a premium to live in a nice quiet neighborhood. But that hasn't always been the case. I've lived in apartment complexes that have issues with theft. The last one was in Baton Rouge. Two doors down from me there was a LEO who drove a Monte Carlo. My truck and his car were broken into on the same day. I wasn't at home, my wife was when it happened. She actually heard my truck door close, and thought Oh, Marty's home. Then realized, no he's in New Orleans today. She felt bad that afternoon when we found out that the electronics in my truck were missing. Until we also found out that the gun and commission were missing from the Monte Carlo parked next to mine. I'm glad she didn't even observe, because I don't know what order the vehicles were robbed and I can't imagine my life without my wife. But I can understand the mentality of someone who lives in an apartment complex that's had issues with theft. You're frustrated that someone gets away with it. You're frustrated that you're not safe in your own neighborhood. And you feel violated. If more people in high crime areas took a stand, we'd have fewer high crime areas.

[speedsix]

...I wasn't talking about the case, or the charges, or over-charging...I was talking about his wrong choices started the chain of events...and that was his fault...had he done what he was trained to do and made a phone call and that's all...the rest of the evening would have been uneventful...at least for him...what is confusing about that??? What's confusing is you can't/won't separate his initial choices/actions from the crimes that happened because of them...my post isn't about how I would like the case to come out...

...another example...just as simple...if you don't poke a hornet's nest hanging by your door...you most likely won't get stung...call the exterminator...it's his job...if you tackle it...you didn't break any law...but it'll hurt just as much as if you had...and, later, you'll probably say you wish you 'd left it alone...

[speedsix]

I live in a nice quiet neighborhood. That's not by chance. I searched for a nice quiet neighborhood. I pay a premium to live in a nice quiet neighborhood. But that hasn't always been the case. I've lived in apartment complexes that have issues with theft. The last one was in Baton Rouge. Two doors down from me there was a LEO who drove a Monte Carlo. My truck and his car were broken into on the same day. I wasn't at home, my wife was when it happened. She actually heard my truck door close, and thought Oh, Marty's home. Then realized, no he's in New Orleans today. She felt bad that afternoon when we found out that the electronics in my truck were missing. Until we also found out that the gun and commission were missing from the Monte Carlo parked next to mine. I'm glad she didn't even observe, because I don't know what order the vehicles were robbed and I can't imagine my life without my wife. But I can understand the mentality of someone who lives in an apartment complex that's had issues with theft. You're frustrated that someone gets away with it. You're frustrated that you're not safe in your own neighborhood. And you feel violated. If more people in high crime areas took a stand, we'd have fewer high crime areas.

...I agree completely with this thinking...but we need to use much wisdom in deciding what our actions in taking that stand should be...

[Heartland Patriot]

...I wasn't talking about the case, or the charges, or over-charging...I was talking about his wrong choices started the chain of events...and that was his fault...had he done what he was trained to do and made a phone call and that's all...the rest of the evening would have been uneventful...at least for him...what is confusing about that??? What's confusing is you can't/won't separate his initial choices/actions from the crimes that happened because of them...my post isn't about how I would like the case to come out...

...another example...just as simple...if you don't poke a hornet's nest hanging by your door...you most likely won't get stung...call the exterminator...it's his job...if you tackle it...you didn't break any law...but it'll hurt just as much as if you had...and, later, you'll probably say you wish you 'd left it alone...

Now I'm double confused. I stated much earlier in this gigantic thread that I thought he shouldn't have gotten out of the vehicle. That it wasn't the wisest choice. I fully agree with you on that, I promise. I guess the reason I'm so fired up about this whole thing is two-fold: one, the media WANTS him to be convicted of murder so that they can use that as precedence to clamp down on citizens defending themselves; the mainstream media, like most liberals, HATE self-defense...two, the prosecution and others are using him getting out of the vehicle to help underpin their murder charge against him, and that is where I and so many others disagree with them.