Holder says illegals have "sacred" right to vote in US

[steve817]

2. Anyone who denies that voter fraud is a problem is either A) in denial, or B) perfectly OK with voter fraud. Neither (A) nor (B) is acceptable. The person in denial is not in possession of his or her faculties and should not vote themselves since they're not responsible for making an informed decision. The person for whom fraud is acceptable is a person of low character. I would like to think that the members of this board fit neither description.

TAM you forgot a couple of things. Anyone who denies that voter fraud is a problem is either
A) in denial
B) perfectly OK with voter fraud
C) a democrat
D) all of the above

[74novaman]

The difference between voting and gun rights is only one was considered important enough to be included in the bill of rights.

Some reading on the founders views of Democracies vs Republics might give a hint as to why the other "right" wasnt included.

Reading some of the founders' views of permitting blacks, women and certain others to vote show why the Constitutional Convention and the new constitution's enactment was such a difficult and uncertain process. Early on the qualifications required of who voted, even in federal elections, was up to each of the separate states. At that time the general rule was that voting was done by propertied white adult males.

Eventually amendments after the first ten caught up with both morality and reality.

Jim

From a high school textbook, surface level interpretation, you are correct.

If you read some of their letters and publications (Federalist Papers, for one) and look beyond this countries issues regarding minorities and women, many of the founders wrote extensively on the dangers of a democracy and the short life of democratic govt before it is replaced by authoritarianism.

But by all means, let's just stop the train of thought at "The founders were racists and sexist".


Edit: Alright, I reread my post and realized how grumpy that sounded. Let me elaborate, and apologize for sounding grumpy. I was a History major in college. I took some classes from wonderful professors who wanted you to do the research, write papers and figure it out yourself. I also took classes from leftists and dedicated Marxists that spoon fed you "their" version of history.

People who use the argument that "well, the founders were racist/sexist/anti poor/whatever other label they can stick on them" drive me up a wall. Were the founders perfect? By no means whatsoever were they shining examples of human perfection. Does that mean that having the prejudices and thoughts consistent with their time frame null any valid thoughts regarding government they had?

Should we ignore the words and thoughts put forth by Plato and Aristotle? After all, they grew up in a time where slavery was common.

There are problems with every age. To go down the road of "oh, the founders didn't want blacks voting" isn't addressing my point at all. I was referring to their thoughts on democracy vs republic, not their thoughts on race.

When you attempt to ignore a discussion point by saying "the founders were racist", you're missing the point. Some of them were...but they also had done a lot of research on governments throughout history, and had done everything possible to curb what they refereed to as mob rule democratic tendencies. I wonder why they'd do that?

[Dave2]

When you attempt to ignore a discussion point by saying "the founders were racist", you're missing the point. Some of them were...but they also had done a lot of research on governments throughout history, and had done everything possible to curb what they refereed to as mob rule democratic tendencies. I wonder why they'd do that?

To ensure that we all get our entitlements?

[57Coastie]

The difference between voting and gun rights is only one was considered important enough to be included in the bill of rights.

Some reading on the founders views of Democracies vs Republics might give a hint as to why the other "right" wasnt included.

Reading some of the founders' views of permitting blacks, women and certain others to vote show why the Constitutional Convention and the new constitution's enactment was such a difficult and uncertain process. Early on the qualifications required of who voted, even in federal elections, was up to each of the separate states. At that time the general rule was that voting was done by propertied white adult males.

Eventually amendments after the first ten caught up with both morality and reality.

Jim

From a high school textbook, surface level interpretation, you are correct.

If you read some of their letters and publications (Federalist Papers, for one) and look beyond this countries issues regarding minorities and women, many of the founders wrote extensively on the dangers of a democracy and the short life of democratic govt before it is replaced by authoritarianism.

But by all means, let's just stop the train of thought at "The founders were racists and sexist".

Edit: Alright, I reread my post and realized how grumpy that sounded. Let me elaborate, and apologize for sounding grumpy. I was a History major in college. I took some classes from wonderful professors who wanted you to do the research, write papers and figure it out yourself. I also took classes from leftists and dedicated Marxists that spoon fed you "their" version of history.

People who use the argument that "well, the founders were racist/sexist/anti poor/whatever other label they can stick on them" drive me up a wall. Were the founders perfect? By no means whatsoever were they shining examples of human perfection. Does that mean that having the prejudices and thoughts consistent with their time frame null any valid thoughts regarding government they had?

Should we ignore the words and thoughts put forth by Plato and Aristotle? After all, they grew up in a time where slavery was common.

There are problems with every age. To go down the road of "oh, the founders didn't want blacks voting" isn't addressing my point at all. I was referring to their thoughts on democracy vs republic, not their thoughts on race.

When you attempt to ignore a discussion point by saying "the founders were racist", you're missing the point. Some of them were...but they also had done a lot of research on governments throughout history, and had done everything possible to curb what they refereed to as mob rule democratic tendencies. I wonder why they'd do that?

Did I disagree with you? If so, just where? Was my response anything other than supplemental to yours? Did I say "the founders were racist/sexist/anti-poor, etc?" Or did I not say, "reading some of the founders' views...."

My, my, we are sensitive today. If you consider someone's quoting you an insult....

Putting one's resume before this group smells of elitism (perish the word). If you strongly desire to exchange CV's drop me a PM or e-mail attaching yours. Should I feel threatened by it I might do the same, although I strongly feel that is not proper in this context.

Meanwhile my "highschool textbook surface level interpretation" remains unchanged.

With the greatest respect for your considering education a positive. I do not see that demonstrated often here on the 'Net.

Jim

[74novaman]

Jim, looks like we're both reading things into each others posts that are unintended.

I wasn't mentioning my classes in the assumption that I have more formal education than others here. Far from it. My only point was in almost every instance I've seen, when you mention the founders views on a subject (for example, democracy) the standard liberal response is to bring up the fact that the founders were racist and sexist as a discrediting factor regarding their thoughts on any other subject.

If that was not your intention, cool.

[VMI77]

The difference between voting and gun rights is only one was considered important enough to be included in the bill of rights.

Some reading on the founders views of Democracies vs Republics might give a hint as to why the other "right" wasnt included.

Reading some of the founders' views of permitting blacks, women and certain others to vote show why the Constitutional Convention and the new constitution's enactment was such a difficult and uncertain process. Early on the qualifications required of who voted, even in federal elections, was up to each of the separate states. At that time the general rule was that voting was done by propertied white adult males.

Eventually amendments after the first ten caught up with both morality and reality.

Jim

From a high school textbook, surface level interpretation, you are correct.

If you read some of their letters and publications (Federalist Papers, for one) and look beyond this countries issues regarding minorities and women, many of the founders wrote extensively on the dangers of a democracy and the short life of democratic govt before it is replaced by authoritarianism.

But by all means, let's just stop the train of thought at "The founders were racists and sexist".


Edit: Alright, I reread my post and realized how grumpy that sounded. Let me elaborate, and apologize for sounding grumpy. I was a History major in college. I took some classes from wonderful professors who wanted you to do the research, write papers and figure it out yourself. I also took classes from leftists and dedicated Marxists that spoon fed you "their" version of history.

People who use the argument that "well, the founders were racist/sexist/anti poor/whatever other label they can stick on them" drive me up a wall. Were the founders perfect? By no means whatsoever were they shining examples of human perfection. Does that mean that having the prejudices and thoughts consistent with their time frame null any valid thoughts regarding government they had?

Should we ignore the words and thoughts put forth by Plato and Aristotle? After all, they grew up in a time where slavery was common.

There are problems with every age. To go down the road of "oh, the founders didn't want blacks voting" isn't addressing my point at all. I was referring to their thoughts on democracy vs republic, not their thoughts on race.

When you attempt to ignore a discussion point by saying "the founders were racist", you're missing the point. Some of them were...but they also had done a lot of research on governments throughout history, and had done everything possible to curb what they refereed to as mob rule democratic tendencies. I wonder why they'd do that?

I think it's misleading to use the term "racist" to describe the founders, just like it's misleading to talk about ancient Greek "Democracy." Neither word describes the reality of the past as seen from the present. "Racist" and "Democracy" have quite different meanings today than what they are used to describe of the past. To say as another poster has, that National morality started sometime after our founding, as if our current government is more "moral" than some previous stage of our government, is utter nonsense.