Stand Your Ground in Danger

[The Annoyed Man]

If you folks want to be law enforcement officers, getting a CHL was not the first step. Good luck with that. Don't ever forget, you don't have law enforcement authority. There is a HUGE difference in self defense and running around looking for trouble...which is what Zimmerman did. ZIMMERMAN WITNESSED NO CRIME TAKING PLACE!

I don't think anyone is arguing or disagreeing with the point you're trying to make. All I am trying to say here is that while Zimmerman's actions were not the brightest, they were not illegal. Meaning, sure Zimmerman didn't have to get out of his car, but Treyvon didn't have to attack him either.

And Zimmerman getting out his car doesn't justify Treyvon attacking him.

[03Lightningrocks]

Funny...at this point I am not sure what anyone's opinion on this thread is. So many hypothetical situations have been introduced, one could easily find themselves defending the existence of the Easter Bunny.

Zimmermans bad choices lead to the death of a human. Maybe a " thug" but in gods eyes... A human. Said thug is dead so we won't be hearing about how he might of thought Zimmerman was a competing gang member about to jump him. We will never hear how said thug may have just been mean and decided to kick zimmermans tail end for fun. What we are going to hear is how this is the perfect example of why citizens can't be trusted to own firearms and this part makes me crazy! My special thanks goes out to Mr. Zimmerman for making us all look bad. I might think differently if Zimmerman saw the guy trying to bust into something or committing a crime. But he didn't... So in my opinion, Zimmerman is not worthy of my concern or compassion.

Approach me in the dark from behind after following me first and I am going to be in extreme condition red. I might even try to gain a tactical advantage on you. It is just us... I don't have a cop. Manno e manno. Mistaken intentions do happen.

To read some of the posts here, I am to believe that if I decide to take a walk right now, I am legitimate game for interrogation by a total stranger. Not in my world. You want to say how ya doing and keep walking I will say fine.. How about you. Stop and challenge me and I won' t be the slightest bit polite. Get in my space and it is on! Neighbor looks outside after the initial encounter and sees me or the other guy on top... Shot fired. Human dead. Who was the bad guy again?

Maybe the dead guy thought Zimmerman was coming after him annoyed man. In this case...I disagree with you my man. If I have reason to believe you are coming after me and your not a police officer doing his duty... I have every right to take you out.

[jmra]

Funny...at this point I am not sure what anyone's opinion on this thread is. So many hypothetical situations have been introduced, one could easily find themselves defending the existence of the Easter Bunny.

Zimmermans bad choices lead to the death of a human. Maybe a " thug" but in gods eyes... A human. Said thug is dead so we won't be hearing about how he might of thought Zimmerman was a competing gang member about to jump him. We will never hear how said thug may have just been mean and decided to kick zimmermans tail end for fun. What we are going to hear is how this is the perfect example of why citizens can't be trusted to own firearms and this part makes me crazy! My special thanks goes out to Mr. Zimmerman for making us all look bad. I might think differently if Zimmerman saw the guy trying to bust into something or committing a crime. But he didn't... So in my opinion, Zimmerman is not worthy of my concern or compassion.

Approach me in the dark from behind after following me first and I am going to be in extreme condition red. I might even try to gain a tactical advantage on you. It is just us... I don't have a cop. Manno e manno. Mistaken intentions do happen.

To read some of the posts here, I am to believe that if I decide to take a walk right now, I am legitimate game for interrogation by a total stranger. Not in my world. You want to say how ya doing and keep walking I will say fine.. How about you. Stop and challenge me and I won' t be the slightest bit polite. Get in my space and it is on! Neighbor looks outside after the initial encounter and sees me or the other guy on top... Shot fired. Human dead. Who was the bad guy again?

Maybe the dead guy thought Zimmerman was coming after him annoyed man. In this case...I disagree with you my man. If I have reason to believe you are coming after me and your not a police officer doing his duty... I have every right to take you out.

I can't think of anything in this thread more hypothetical than your assertion that Zimmermans "bad choices" resulted in Martins death.
Martin is dead because he attacked a retreating Zimmerman with deadly force. There is no evidence whatsoever to suggest that Zimmerman provoked this attack.

[ScooterSissy]

Funny...at this point I am not sure what anyone's opinion on this thread is. So many hypothetical situations have been introduced, one could easily find themselves defending the existence of the Easter Bunny.

Zimmermans bad choices lead to the death of a human. Maybe a " thug" but in gods eyes... A human. Said thug is dead so we won't be hearing about how he might of thought Zimmerman was a competing gang member about to jump him. We will never hear how said thug may have just been mean and decided to kick zimmermans tail end for fun. What we are going to hear is how this is the perfect example of why citizens can't be trusted to own firearms and this part makes me crazy! My special thanks goes out to Mr. Zimmerman for making us all look bad. I might think differently if Zimmerman saw the guy trying to bust into something or committing a crime. But he didn't... So in my opinion, Zimmerman is not worthy of my concern or compassion.

And that's where you part ways with so many on here. What you're saying is that Zimmerman (and all other neighborhood watch folks) should act like a cop, wait until something has happened, then react. I would agree with you had he simply jumped Trayvon (which is what we were all originally lead to believe), or even if he had somehow been verbally aggressive. If the current status of the story is to be believed, he didn't.

I don't think following a stranger makes CHL owner's "look bad". Further, it's not his job to make us look good.

...
Maybe the dead guy thought Zimmerman was coming after him annoyed man. In this case...I disagree with you my man. If I have reason to believe you are coming after me and your not a police officer doing his duty... I have every right to take you out.

Actually, you're wrong. Simply because "you believe" that does not give you the right to "take someone out".

Besides, wouldn't that make us all "look bad"?

[gdanaher]

I don't think following a stranger makes CHL owner's "look bad". Further, it's not his job to make us look good.

Many gun haters have developed a negative stereotypical view of anyone who holds a CHL in whatever form the state permits. It takes enormous effort to convert those folks to our side yet very little to reconfirm their negative view. They are vocal and carry much political clout. It may not be Zimmerman's job to make us look good, but he could have avoided making himself look so bad.

[bayouhazard]

If he was knocked to the ground then he wasn't standing at all, much less standing his ground.

[03Lightningrocks]

Hold on... let me get my bunny ears out.

[03Lightningrocks]

I can't think of anything in this thread more hypothetical than your assertion that Zimmermans "bad choices" resulted in Martins death.
Martin is dead because he attacked a retreating Zimmerman with deadly force. There is no evidence whatsoever to suggest that Zimmerman provoked this attack.

If Zimmerman had of stayed in his vehicle instead of playing cop, he would not have put himself into the position of having to shoot the guy who was whooping his tail. That is NOT hypothetical in any way, shape, form or fashion and quite frankly it is a very pertanate FACT! I bet it comes up at Zimmermans trial.

What is hypothetical is assuming that the dead guy attacked Zimmerman first. NOBODY saw that part of the situation. They saw Zimmerman getting whooped... but we don't know what transpired just before the witness saw batman getting his butt kicked.

Like it or not... MY POST IS ONE OF THE VERY FEW FACT BASED POSTS ON THIS ENTIRE THREAD!!! You folks better wake up here. This is just the kind of case to cause public opinion to turn on CHLers!!! We want to be real darned careful about acting like we all think the CHL gives us the right to do crime investigation. Most citizens have a real fear of untrained individuals running around with guns playing cop.

[03Lightningrocks]

...
Maybe the dead guy thought Zimmerman was coming after him annoyed man. In this case...I disagree with you my man. If I have reason to believe you are coming after me and your not a police officer doing his duty... I have every right to take you out.

Actually, you're wrong. Simply because "you believe" that does not give you the right to "take someone out".

Besides, wouldn't that make us all "look bad"?

Not at all. That is what self defense is all about. Someone does something to make you feel your life is in danger and you have the right to stop them. The courts will later determine if your determination had merit. A person stalking me in the dark or coming up agressively behind me in the dark would qualify. So, stand my ground laws don't apply to me because Zimmerman is neighborhood block captain??? Really??? Maybe he should have shouted... "Halt in the name of the block captain". I feel sure this would have made me feel less threatened.

If this thread were about being alert to danger and someone posted about going defensive while out for walk and noticing they were being stalked in the same situation, half the very same posters here would be giving them Kudos for awareness.

[ScooterSissy]

...
Maybe the dead guy thought Zimmerman was coming after him annoyed man. In this case...I disagree with you my man. If I have reason to believe you are coming after me and your not a police officer doing his duty... I have every right to take you out.

Actually, you're wrong. Simply because "you believe" that does not give you the right to "take someone out".

Besides, wouldn't that make us all "look bad"?

Not at all. That is what self defense is all about. Someone does something to make you feel your life is in danger and you have the right to stop them. The courts will later determine if your determination had merit. A person stalking me in the dark or coming up agressively behind me in the dark would qualify. So, stand my ground laws don't apply to me because Zimmerman is neighborhood block captain??? Really??? Maybe he should have shouted... "Halt in the name of the block captain". I feel sure this would have made me feel less threatened.

If this thread were about being alert to danger and someone posted about going defensive while out for walk and noticing they were being stalked in the same situation, half the very same posters here would be giving them Kudos for awareness.

I think it's funny that you seem to feel that would give you justification to "take him out", but you don't feel getting your nose broken, and your head pounded in the cement with the guy sitting on top of you is justification.

Sorry, you're not making your point very well.

And no, following someone would not give you the justification for the actions you're claiming in Texas.

And please, don't put words in my mouth and then counter the false premise. I never said being block captain gave Zimmerman any sort of rights. Never even implied it. However, I will maintain that I, or anyone else, has the right to follow someone we think is suspicious.

[jmra]

I can't think of anything in this thread more hypothetical than your assertion that Zimmermans "bad choices" resulted in Martins death.
Martin is dead because he attacked a retreating Zimmerman with deadly force. There is no evidence whatsoever to suggest that Zimmerman provoked this attack.

If Zimmerman had of stayed in his vehicle instead of playing cop, he would not have put himself into the position of having to shoot the guy who was whooping his tail. That is NOT hypothetical in any way, shape, form or fashion and quite frankly it is a very pertanate FACT! I bet it comes up at Zimmermans trial.

What is hypothetical is assuming that the dead guy attacked Zimmerman first. NOBODY saw that part of the situation. They saw Zimmerman getting whooped... but we don't know what transpired just before the witness saw batman getting his butt kicked.

Like it or not... MY POST IS ONE OF THE VERY FEW FACT BASED POSTS ON THIS ENTIRE THREAD!!! You folks better wake up here. This is just the kind of case to cause public opinion to turn on CHLers!!! We want to be real darned careful about acting like we all think the CHL gives us the right to do crime investigation. Most citizens have a real fear of untrained individuals running around with guns playing cop.

The part about your post being fact based is very funny.
Using your logic I could say that if Martin hadn't been dealing drugs and gotten himself suspended from school he wouldnt have been in the neighborhood in the first place. So being a drug dealer resulted in his death.

[03Lightningrocks]

Well there you have it.

[PracticalTactical]

It seems pretty clear based on the eyewitness testimony now starting to come out that Martin used far too much force, whether that force was in defense or not.

If you deck some creepy guy out who is following you, it's not right to then straddle the person and beat their face in plus hit their head against the concrete. When you overstep the bounds of self defense, you lose your defense claim and become the aggressor.

Even if we ignore Martin's background and assume he was defending himself from a non-lethal attack by Zimmerman, he was still in the wrong, both morally and legally when he got on top. Sure, Zimmerman was stupid to inject himself into the situation, but that doesn't justify Martin's reaction, no matter how much of a benefit of a doubt we give him.

[03Lightningrocks]

Using your logic I could say that if Martin hadn't been dealing drugs and gotten himself suspended from school he wouldnt have been in the neighborhood in the first place. So being a drug dealer resulted in his death.

Using your logic, if zimmerman had not been born in the first place, none of this would have happened. How about we all quit reaching so far and get back to reality? I am actually surprised so many of you think that CHL gives you Batman authority. Good luck with that.

Zimmerman creating the situation by butting in where he was not needed is logical... your logic is just rediculous at any level.

[jmra]

Using your logic I could say that if Martin hadn't been dealing drugs and gotten himself suspended from school he wouldnt have been in the neighborhood in the first place. So being a drug dealer resulted in his death.

Using your logic, if zimmerman had not been born in the first place, none of this would have happened. How about we all quit reaching so far and get back to reality? I am actually surprised so many of you think that CHL gives you Batman authority. Good luck with that.

Zimmerman creating the situation by butting in where he was not needed is logical... your logic is just rediculous at any level.

Actually that would be using your logic, not mine.

If you want to talk facts we can. The fact is simply this; there is not a single shred of evidence to suggest that Zimmerman continued to follow or look for Martin after being told by the operator "we don't need you to do that". There is not a single shred of evidence to suggest that Zimmerman did not retreat toward his vehicle as he claimed. There is not a single bit of evidence to suggest that Zimmerman did anything other than what he has claimed most of which is supported by eye witnesses and the physical evidence found at the scene.
Another fact; the only evidence that we have to date that Zimmerman shot Martin is Zimmermans own statement. No one saw him do it. We haven't seen a ballistics report. We haven't seen the results of a gun powder test that shows that Zimmerman actually fired a gun. The only thing we have is eye witness accounts that they struggled and what they saw afterwards and Zimmermans word. We accept as fact that Zimmerman shot Martin because of Zimmermans statement and the supporting evidence but many dismiss everything else he says and the supporting evidence because it does not fit what they want to believe. Well, news flash, you can't have your cake and eat it too.