Stand Your Ground in Danger

[Beiruty]

One has to add, if the shooter has had bad intention and wanted to "hunt" someone, would he call 911 to report a suspicious person?
I hate those lawmakers who spout hate and lies and make out a story from another world instead of learning of basic fact. I guess this is the job of DA and Special investigators.

[The Annoyed Man]

Maybe I missed this in the past 17 pages of comments, but I think Stand Your Ground is not a valid issue in this case. What Zimmerman did was or wasn't justifiable homicide. To be justifiable, three main qualifiers must be met. 1. Zimmerman must have legally been allowed to be at the location of the incident, 2. Zimmerman must have reasonably been in imminent fear for for his life (or at least severe injury), and 3. Zimmerman must not have caused or instigated the situation. If any of these three are not satisfied beyond a reasonable level, most folks in his position should expect themselves to have the facts go to a grand jury at the minimum. If #3 is not satisfied (which seems to be the case from what is publicly known), then it is fair to expect his actions to come under scrutiny. This doesn't mean he was not justified. It simply means, he would have to defend his actions. With that said, "Stand Your Ground" wouldn't make an unjustified use of deadly force legal. If that were the case, any and every bully could start fights, and then shoot their victims once the victim starts fighting back. This is absurd, but that is essentially what the prohibitionists are implying. They do not understand the law. Whether Zimmerman was justified or not would not be influenced by a SYG statute.

Character assessments of either party are also not very helpful in this situation. Was Martin a "thug"? It shouldn't matter! Question is, was his shooting justified, and that has nothing to do with weather he was using/distributing drugs. Since when does a minor's drug use warrant death? Was Zimmerman a "wannabe cop" with a history of assault overstepping his bounds? History speaks to character, but not to the facts of that night. The proper question is who acted illegally that night? If Zimmerman acted improperly (lets not forget that a 911 dispatcher saying "don't follow" is hardly a lawful order), I would be just as concerned about the local PD for not doing a proper investigation and potentially letting a killer, or at least a demonstrated recklessly irresponsible CHL holder, walk away scott free.

THIS.....

versus this:

About Zimmerman: unfortunately for him, I think any semblance of a normal life going forward is probably impossible. Probably the best thing that could happen to him right now is to get indicted and convicted, spend a few years in the big house, get out early for good behavior, and hope that by then nobody will remember this incident. That way he might have a chance at a normal life. He's still young, only 28. If, however, he gets acquitted, adios normal life forever. People will know who he is, he will get recognized, and there are always people out there willing to do violence if they feel the justice system didn't do its job. I'm not saying it's right, I'm saying that's reality. He'll always have to look over his shoulder for as long as he's alive. He would become the OJ of central FL (and I'm not talking about the delicious FL orange juice).

THANKYOU lbuehler325 for a most well-reasoned statement of the case before us! You may well have saved this thread. Your analysis has succinctly stated what others including myself have failed to articulate, but wholeheartedly meant. Matriculated, on the other hand, under the guise of "fairness," seems to be arguing—before all the facts are in—that A) any discussion of possibly exculpatory evidence harms our gun rights; and B) that the best thing here is for Zimmerman to plead guilty (even though he may actually be innocent, and because his mind is already made up as to guilt), take a prison term for manslaughter so that he can try to get his life back into a semblance of normalcy......as if, thanks to race baiters, his life will ever be normal again no matter the outcome.

Zimmerman's chances of survival in prison, where a revenge killing would surely happen swiftly, are even slimmer than if he remains free. At least if he remains free he retains the ability to defend himself (and his wife and kids who have also been threatened). This case is definitely going to go before a grand jury, and a recommendation to trial will be made or not made; and if tried, innocence will be presumed until guilt is proven. THAT is the justice system at work.

If he is found guilty, those in this thread who presumed innocence until guilt is proven will be able to stand tall and say that their opinions were consistent with how our justice system is supposed to work. Those who did not, will not.

Matriculated, one thing you have failed to do here is to clearly articulate why discussing Zimmerman's possible innocence is detrimental to our gun rights. I would like to know how you rationalize that. I think I know why you're saying it, but I would like to give you the chance to state it for the rest of us in your own words. Mine might not be so charitable.

[Beiruty]

Mr. Zimmerman can move to Canada or Europe or Australia and starts a new life as an immigrant. Problem solved.

[VMI77]

Character assessments of either party are also not very helpful in this situation. Was Martin a "thug"? It shouldn't matter!

I completely disagree, especially since there are no witnesses to everything that happened. Character is a significant factor in assessing which claims are likely to be true. If Martin, for instance, had a criminal record of assault, then Zimmerman's version of events would have more credibility than if he was a divinity student. Likewise, if Zimmerman had a history of racist behavior and was known to lie then even if Martin had a criminal record, Zimmerman's claims would would lack credibility.

[ScooterSissy]

...
We are missing the point if we worry about the issue of whether Martin was a thug or not. The issue is that the shooter had no business acting as a cop. He didn't witness the kid committing any crime anyway! Are we really going to pretend this was a good shoot?

In a word - Yes, but I don't think "pretend" is the right word. I think it might very well may have been.

What if the opening narratives about this incident had read something like this:

In Sanford last night, an off-duty neighborhood watch volunteer was attacked and beaten by 17 year old suspended student, who was fatally wounded during the attack. George Zimmerman was on his way to buy groceries when he noticed what he described as a "suspicious person" walking in the rain in this gated community. Zimmerman interrupted his trip, called 911, and because of recent break-ins decided to follow the person until help arrived. He was later advised by the 911 operator that following wasn't necessary, and since he had lost sight of the stranger anyway, he turned to returned to his vehicle. Before reaching his car, Trayvon Martin, a suspended student from North Miami Beach, approached Zimmerman, asking if he "had a problem". When Zimmerman responded that he didn't Martin suddenly punched him knocking him down, then jumped on top of him, repeatedly slamming Zimmerman's head into the sidewalk. Zimmerman, who was legally armed with a handgun, screamed for help several times. Neighbors heard the screams and called 911, but did not assist. Zimmerman finally pulled his weapon and shot Martin once, ending the attack. Martin died at the scene. Zimmerman was treated for a broken nose and lacerations to his head, and was released by police who have classified the killing as self-defense.

The above narrative "fits" the details that have come out since the initial stories. If that had been the first story I read, I wouldn't have thought that Zimmerman deserved jail (which was my original thought when this story broke). Do I think the the above narrative is a fair representation of what happened? Nah, not really. But then, I don't think most of the stories I've read so far are either, and that's the point. We don't know what happened. We probably never will. What we "know" is spin, and Zimmerman's side is getting out there late in the game. However, as more details come to light it's beginning to look more and more that what inital impression we got was wrong.

Look at the story in another part of this forum viewtopic.php?f=108&t=53825. This was a case where a convicted felon, illegally in possession of a gun, killed a man. If that had been the headline for that story, chances are we'd all be a lot less sympathetic. Instead, the headlines read that an elderly homeowner shot and killed an intruder, and was then arrested. We were all sympathetic before we read the first line of the details, in much the same way that I was sympathetic to Trayvon when I read the misleading headline that an unarmed student was shot and killed by a neighborhood watch leader.

Though I've been an advocate for gun rights for years, I only recently bought one for myself; so I'm new to this game. But I'm begining to believe that maybe those "retainer packages" where gun owners pay an annual fee to have an attorney on retainer should include a publicist as well. One would likely have helped Zimmerman greatly in this case.

[The Annoyed Man]

Mr. Zimmerman can move to Canada or Europe or Australia and starts a new life as an immigrant. Problem solved.

Ditto for Treyvon's family, Al Sharpton, the New Black Panther Party, and any other race baiters, hucksters, and snake-oil salesmen. In fact, that solves an even bigger problem.

[A-R]

ScooterSissy, great post

Very insightful and worthwhile analysis.

[WildBill]

Mr. Zimmerman can move to Canada or Europe or Australia and starts a new life as an immigrant. Problem solved.

Ditto for Treyvon's family, Al Sharpton, the New Black Panther Party, and any other race baiters, hucksters, and snake-oil salesmen. In fact, that solves an even bigger problem.

I vote for the South Pole.

[bzo311]

How did we get to drug use and drinking?

and did someone actually say or imply that everyone has done it?

I am getting a little on in years, but I have never smoked anything, and I cannot drink alcohol, so I am no expert on those actions, but everyone? I feel that might be a bit of a stretch.

On topic, I don't think SYG is in trouble beyond saving.

I am getting on in years and as a troubled teen tried about every drug known to man kind. Smoking pot never made me do anything other than laugh, eat everything in the house and fall asleep. It sure never made me or anyone else I ever saw stoned violent. Now drinking is a different story. I wish I had a nickel for every time I watched some redneck get all tough guy after drinking two beers. This thread is way too long to read every post, but some story about finding weed in this guys back pack does not make me think he is a bad guy in the slightest. It is also nothing more than the local cops trying to divert from the real issue. On what authority was Zimmerman donning his bat cape?

What this story does tell me is that armed watchmen and security guards are dangerous and don't have the proper training to be playing batman. Neither do the majority of us with a CHL. Don't chase me down and act like it is self defense when I clock you. The only one I won't go ninja on is a police officer. Security guards and neighborhood batmans are fair game. This is looking bad for the shooter. He never had any business chasing that kid down!

We are missing the point if we worry about the issue of whether Martin was a thug or not. The issue is that the shooter had no business acting as a cop. He didn't witness the kid committing any crime anyway! Are we really going to pretend this was a good shoot?

I think you are missing some very important information and making some large assumptions. Zimmerman was not on watch, he was going to the store. According to the physical evidence and eye witness accounts Zimmerman did not confront Martin and was returning to his vehicle when he was attacked from behind. He was being beaten (nose was broken and Martin was repeatedly smashing his head against the sidewalk). The only witness to the beating believed that Zimmerman was in enough danger that he ran to his cell phone to call 911. I guess you believe that since Zimmerman got out of his car and followed Martin at a distance in order to give the police a better discription that he should have let Martin continue to smash his head until he was dead instead of defending himself.
The facts in this case are simple. If Zimmerman did confront Martin (it appears that he did not) he retreated back toward his vehicle before being attacked. Stand your ground does not apply because he retreated and none of Zimmerman actions prior to retreating (none of which were illegal) are relevant once he retreated. Unless more evidence comes to light, Zimmermans account, eye witnesses, and physical evidence all support self-defense.

I agree whole-heartedly here, JMRA.

I would add that if what is being reported from the police report and witness is true, the only thing I see Zimmerman being guilty of is bad decision making. I know I disagree with a lot of you when I say that I don't think he was "playing cop", but that doesn't mean that I don;t think his actions were smart; HOWEVER saying that his actions were a result of the shooting is like saying that a scantily-clad woman's dress is the result of her assault. The direct action responsible for the shooting is the assault on Zimmerman.

[bayouhazard]

Looking at the facts as we know them now, I agree stand your ground doesn't apply.

Stand Your Ground says we have no duty to retreat. If my back is against a solid surface like a wall (or... IDK... The Earth) then I can't retreat any further. The wall (or the planet) is in my way. If retreat is impossible, there is no duty to retreat in the first place, so Stand Your Ground is irrelevant.

[03Lightningrocks]

I must have missed the part of the story where Zimmerman innocently got out of his car and was attacked. I was more focus on him following the dude around the neighborhood because the guy had a hoody and was black.

Can someone direct me to the report that Zimmerman just happened to be getting out of his car and was attacked?

[gdanaher]

I haven't seen what time of the evening this all occurred, and what day of the week. Perhaps unimportant, but an observer might take note of a high school kid out at 3 am on Tuesday whereas think nothing of it at 11 pm on Friday, and it might bear upon his inclination to think that something was about to happen. Secondly, how much time elapsed between Zimmerman's 911 call when he was asked not to follow, and the time the police arrived? Zimmerman may have sat there for quite some time before getting out of the vehicle. Perhaps the police gave the call a very low priority until the switchboard lit up with the calls from the neighbors?

[hi-power]

I haven't seen what time of the evening this all occurred, and what day of the week. Perhaps unimportant, but an observer might take note of a high school kid out at 3 am on Tuesday whereas think nothing of it at 11 pm on Friday, and it might bear upon his inclination to think that something was about to happen. Secondly, how much time elapsed between Zimmerman's 911 call when he was asked not to follow, and the time the police arrived? Zimmerman may have sat there for quite some time before getting out of the vehicle. Perhaps the police gave the call a very low priority until the switchboard lit up with the calls from the neighbors?

Looks like it was called in shortly after 7:00pm on a Sunday night:
(Edited to add link: http://msnbcmedia.msn.com/i/MSNBC/Secti ... Report.pdf).

[ScooterSissy]

I must have missed the part of the story where Zimmerman innocently got out of his car and was attacked. I was more focus on him following the dude around the neighborhood because the guy had a hoody and was black.

Can someone direct me to the report that Zimmerman just happened to be getting out of his car and was attacked?

I don't think anyone here said that he just "innocently got out of his car and was attcked". However, there have been several reports the he claims he lost the guy, and was headed back to his car, when Martin approached him from behind. Is that what you were seeking, or was this just a response implying that he had no business getting out of his car?

[i8godzilla]

Mr. Zimmerman can move to Canada or Europe or Australia and starts a new life as an immigrant. Problem solved.

Ditto for Treyvon's family, Al Sharpton, the New Black Panther Party, and any other race baiters, hucksters, and snake-oil salesmen. In fact, that solves an even bigger problem.

I vote for the South Pole.

I was thinking of a place MUCH hotter than that.