17y/o Killed By Neighborhood Watch/CHL

[drjoker]

LIberals are unnecessarily trying to "change the law" to fix something that doesn't need fixing. Mr Zimmerman was arrested and questioned. The evidence seemed to point towards self-defense but is murky, so they let him go, but the police does say that they will be turning his file over to a grand jury to decide because it is not a clear case of self defense. That doesn't look like racism on the part of the police department at all. It looks like that cops did an O.K. job here. They didn't do a stellar job because they did not test Mr. Zimmerman for drugs. Did they even ask Mr. Zimmerman if they could do a drug test?

Although most CHLers are a cut above most folks due to having to pass a rigorous background check, as long as you have human beings, you're gonna have stupid people do stupid stuff. There are stupid drivers on the road driving. Do we ban cars? No. And so neither should we "license" neighborhood watches or make the self-defense laws favor thugs.

It seems like this is a case of two stupid people meeting up. Zimmerman for following Martin who has committed no crime and Martin for beating up a guy that also has committed no crime. It's legal to wear a hoodie and walk around the neighborhood. It's legal to follow someone on the street. It's stupid and illegal to beat someone up just because they're following you. It's stupid and illegal to shoot someone after you've provoked it by following a "suspicious person" after the police told you not to. Although justified in shooting Martin, he did cause the situation where he had to shoot him, so unless he resurrects Johnny Cochran, he'll probably do 5 years for involuntary manslaughter.

It seems like, although stupid, Mr. Zimmerman is the only good neighbor there. There were SIX witnesses who called 911, but NOBODY went outside to help them! Hosing them both down with a garden hose or some pepper spray should stop the stupidity. I've used the garden hose trick with dogs successfully, so it should work with humans who have the I.Q. of dogs. If the situation were reversed, Mr. Zimmerman would've tried to help his neighbors. Unfortunately, this "neighborhood watch" only consisted of Mr. Zimmerman.

I had a very similar situation before where I was walking my dog at 3 a.m. in the morning (my dog is old and has little control of his bowels and bladder) when I heard the "click" of someone stepping on a pebble behind me. I greeted him (I forgot what my exact words were because this was years ago) and he said something like, "Sorry I snuck up on you. I was just leaving the neighborhood." The guy had a backpack on. Sure, that was real suspicious, but walking with a backpack is not illegal. I did not follow him and he did not attack me but just left my neighborhood. I had my hand on my gun in my pocket, but I did not draw because he was not doing anything illegal. Neither of us did anything stupid so everybody came out alive.

P.S. That's the advantage of a "mouse gun". I know everybody disapproves of .22 and .380 for self-defense and approves of .45 or .40, but if you have a big gun, going for the gun means that you'll have to escalate the situation by letting the other guy know you have a gun. Reaching inside your waistband or brushing aside your jacket to reach your gun would reveal that you have a gun. However, putting your hand in your pocket is not obviously going for your gun. Just make sure you smile and act cool when you have your hand in your pocket. Already having your hand on the gun makes the draw much faster. If you have a revolver with a laser sight (or lots of practice), you may even shoot from the hip for maximum speed. Even if you carry a big gun, it's always good to have a mouse gun for a BUG.

[Jusster]

I don’t see the witness account of John changing much in my eyes. If there have been witnesses with contradicting story’s then to me, that seems like even more reason why the original charges should have held or at least sent to the GJ long before now.

John’s version indicates that Zimmerman was wearing a red jacket/sweater during the fight, but at least one 911 caller and other witness claims dispute that. Even the 13yo witness and his mother state that while being questioned by police he was asked who was yelling for help, the man in the t-shirt or the man in the hooded sweatshirt? Also, based on Johns account, he stated something like, “I told him to stop and I was calling 911”, who was he telling to stop and why? Not even John knows exactly how the fight started. Based on his account he witnessed a fight that was already in progress.

This is not by any means a clear cut case either way. The only way to resolve this issue is for it to work through the legal system. That’s what should have been done in the first place and this whole situation we have now could have been avoided.

Jusster

[A-R]

No one is disagreeing that legal system should sort this out. Many have been saying this from beginning as rebuttal to all those calling for Zimmerman's head on a platter.

Zimmerman need not be arrested nor in custody in order for legal system to sort this out. Authorities will pick him up if/when evidence provides probable cause or grand jury indicts.

Your rebuttal of "John's" eyewitness statements did nothing to refute this key point: man who was on top beating other man is same man who was moments later on ground presumably shot (gunshot heard, man on ground not moving, witness thinks "he's dead"

The national nutty of hyperbole, side angles, and grandstanding needs to stop.

The people who issued the $10,000 "bounty" need to be arrested for solicitation of murder.

[A-R]

BREAKING NEWS: Nearly 75% of Americans think Trayvon Martin gunman should be arrested, CNN/ORC poll finds

Thanksfully, in "flyover country" the rest of us yokels rely on the LAW ENFORCEMENT PERSONNEL & THE JUSTICE SYSTEM to determine probably cause for an arrest.



All this idiotic poll question reveals is how insidious the mainstream media in this country really is. Whatever MSM says, the people believe - lock, stock, and smoking barrel.

[Keith B]

Well, this goes back to what Charles teaches in his Use of Force seminars. You may be arrested, and it may not be a bad thing if you are. Just because you are arrested doesn't mean you won't be ROR (Released on your Own Recognizance) vs. having to stay in jail or make a small bail. Some of the advantages are just this type of thing; the police show they are reviewing the case and they can explain you were not a risk of flight so you were ROR. It also will get you away from a scene when there may be reporters or other individuals around that want to ask you questions post shooting and allows you time to gather your thoughts.

Bottom line, I am sure the police felt they knew where to find Zimmerman should they need him, and that was their reason for not arresting him. Might have been better if they had from a public view though.

[jmra]

Still a little confused about what constitutes an arrest. If I'm cuffed, put in the back seat of a cruiser, and taken to head quarters to be questioned without my consent; have I not yet been arrested? Is there a difference between arrest and "detained for questioning". I can see if they asked Zimmerman to follow in his car to the station how that would not be considered an arrest, but he was cuffed and stuffed.
Seems to me I have heard LEO on here claim that a traffic stop is actually an arrest. How would what Zimmerman went thru not considered an arrest?

[Jusster]

No one is disagreeing that legal system should sort this out. Many have been saying this from beginning as rebuttal to all those calling for Zimmerman's head on a platter.

Zimmerman need not be arrested nor in custody in order for legal system to sort this out. Authorities will pick him up if/when evidence provides probable cause or grand jury indicts.

Your rebuttal of "John's" eyewitness statements did nothing to refute this key point: man who was on top beating other man is same man who was moments later on ground presumably shot (gunshot heard, man on ground not moving, witness thinks "he's dead"

The national nutty of hyperbole, side angles, and grandstanding needs to stop.

The people who issued the $10,000 "bounty" need to be arrested for solicitation of murder.

My point was Johns story is in complete contradiction to other witnesses stories. Other witness accounts state it was the man in the white t-shirt who was on top. If you have witnesses who have opposing stories of the same event, then I don’t see how one just simply draws the conclusion that there is not enough evidence to dispute the claim of self defense. Simply put, Johns story is just one of many and should not have been the determining factor just because his story supported Zimmerman’s account.

I in no way agree with any bounty being put out for Zimmerman. I do agree that the media has taken this story way too far. If this case would have been handled properly by Florida authorities in the first place we wouldn’t be discussing it now.


Jusster

[jmra]

No one is disagreeing that legal system should sort this out. Many have been saying this from beginning as rebuttal to all those calling for Zimmerman's head on a platter.

Zimmerman need not be arrested nor in custody in order for legal system to sort this out. Authorities will pick him up if/when evidence provides probable cause or grand jury indicts.

Your rebuttal of "John's" eyewitness statements did nothing to refute this key point: man who was on top beating other man is same man who was moments later on ground presumably shot (gunshot heard, man on ground not moving, witness thinks "he's dead"

The national nutty of hyperbole, side angles, and grandstanding needs to stop.

The people who issued the $10,000 "bounty" need to be arrested for solicitation of murder.

My point was Johns story is in complete contradiction to other witnesses stories. Other witness accounts state it was the man in the white t-shirt who was on top. If you have witnesses who have opposing stories of the same event, then I don’t see how one just simply draws the conclusion that there is not enough evidence to dispute the claim of self defense. Simply put, Johns story is just one of many and should not have been the determining factor just because his story supported Zimmerman’s account.

I in no way agree with any bounty being put out for Zimmerman. I do agree that the media has taken this story way too far. If this case would have been handled properly by Florida authorities in the first place we wouldn’t be discussing it now.


Jusster

According to the police report Zimmerman was wearing a red jacket.

[KC5AV]

Still a little confused about what constitutes an arrest. If I'm cuffed, put in the back seat of a cruiser, and taken to head quarters to be questioned without my consent; have I not yet been arrested? Is there a difference between arrest and "detained for questioning". I can see if they asked Zimmerman to follow in his car to the station how that would not be considered an arrest, but he was cuffed and stuffed.
Seems to me I have heard LEO on here claim that a traffic stop is actually an arrest. How would what Zimmerman went thru not considered an arrest?

From the Texas code of criminal procedure

Art. 15.22. [239] [286] [274] WHEN A PERSON IS ARRESTED. A
person is arrested when he has been actually placed under restraint
or taken into custody by an officer or person executing a warrant of
arrest, or by an officer or person arresting without a warrant.

Acts 1965, 59th Leg., vol. 2, p. 317, ch. 722, eff. Jan. 1, 1966.

http://law.onecle.com/texas/criminal-pr ... 22.00.html" onclick="window.open(this.href);return false;

Of course, this is Texas, not Florida. The threshold in Florida may be different.

[speedsix]

... http://gpottslaw.wordpress.com/tag/florida-arrest-law/" onclick="window.open(this.href);return false;

...I would say that he was, in fact, arrested...

[mamabearCali]

If I were cuffed, stuffed, and then taken downtown, I would certainly think I had been arrested.

Look I feel for Zimmerman and I feel for Martins' family (it is terrible to have to lose a child no matter the circumstances). I think the legal system we have is pretty good (or as good as you are going to get in this world) and I have great hope that the truth and justice will prevail. I do wish that we could rewind and have Zimmerman stay in the car and follow in the car, but we can't so we will all just have to wait this out.

[A-R]

No one is disagreeing that legal system should sort this out. Many have been saying this from beginning as rebuttal to all those calling for Zimmerman's head on a platter.

Zimmerman need not be arrested nor in custody in order for legal system to sort this out. Authorities will pick him up if/when evidence provides probable cause or grand jury indicts.

Your rebuttal of "John's" eyewitness statements did nothing to refute this key point: man who was on top beating other man is same man who was moments later on ground presumably shot (gunshot heard, man on ground not moving, witness thinks "he's dead"

My point was Johns story is in complete contradiction to other witnesses stories. Other witness accounts state it was the man in the white t-shirt who was on top. If you have witnesses who have opposing stories of the same event, then I don’t see how one just simply draws the conclusion that there is not enough evidence to dispute the claim of self defense. Simply put, Johns story is just one of many and should not have been the determining factor just because his story supported Zimmerman’s account.

Jusster

As I understand this (and it may simply be a misunderstanding of various witness statements and 911 calls between the two of us), "John" is the only reliable EYEwitness BEFORE the shot is fired. There are a number of witnesses/911 recordings after shot is fired. The one lady Ms. Cutcher and her roommate make a lot of claims/assumptions based on what they saw AFTER the gunshot (Zimmerman standing over Martin's body, etc). There are also other witnesses who witnessed "a fight" before gunshot, but none seem to indicate who was on top, who was beating who, etc. - just "a struggle" of some kind.

[speedsix]

...then I find this: http://gpottslaw.wordpress.com/tag/florida-arrest-law/" onclick="window.open(this.href);return false; in Florida, it can be either way...arrested or not...one state is enough to keep up with...I quit...

[A-R]

BREAKING NEWS

Seems police have finally released THEIR version of Zimmerman's "version of events" to the Orlando newspaper

http://articles.orlandosentinel.com/201 ... k-teenager" onclick="window.open(this.href);return false;

Police have been reluctant to provided details about all their evidence, but this is what they've disclosed to the Sentinel:

Zimmerman was on his way to the grocery store when he spotted Trayvon walking through his gated community.

Trayvon was visiting his father's fiancée, who lived there. He had been suspended from school in Miami after being found with an empty marijuana baggie. Miami schools have a zero-tolerance policy for drug possession.

Zimmerman called police and reported a suspicious person, describing Trayvon as black, acting strangely and perhaps on drugs.

Zimmerman got out of his SUV to follow Trayvon on foot. When a dispatch employee asked Zimmerman if he was following the 17-year-old, Zimmerman said yes. The dispatcher told Zimmerman he did not need to do that.

There is about a one-minute gap during which police say they're not sure what happened.

Zimmerman told them he lost sight of Trayvon and was walking back to his SUV when Trayvon approached him from the left rear, and they exchanged words.

Trayvon asked Zimmerman if he had a problem. Zimmerman said no and reached for his cell phone, he told police.

Trayvon then said, "Well, you do now" or something similar and punched Zimmerman in the nose.

Zimmerman fell to the ground and Trayvon got on top of him and began slamming his head into the sidewalk, he told police.

Zimmerman began yelling for help.

Several witnesses heard those cries, and there's been a dispute about from whom they came: Zimmerman or Trayvon.

Lawyers for Trayvon's family say it was Trayvon, but police say their evidence indicates it was Zimmerman.

One witnesses, who has since talked to local television news reporters, told police he saw Zimmerman on the ground with Trayvon on top, pounding him and was unequivocal that it was Zimmerman who was crying for help.

Zimmerman then shot Trayvon once in the chest from very close range, according to authorities.

When police arrived less than two minutes later, Zimmerman was bleeding from the nose, had a swollen lip and had bloody lacerations to the back of his head.

The above seems to raise a lot of questions about the ASSUMPTIONS many have made about Zimmerman's actions. According to this version of events (and understanding it is merely another version, but is the one originally believed by police based on all the evidence they gathered initially) ...

• Zimmerman was not "patrolling" for a Neighborhood Watch program - he was on his way to the grocery store when he noticed Martin
• Zimmerman did not necessarily "follow" Martin from outside his vehicle for very long, if at all. He gets out of vehicle while on 911 call, dispatcher tells him he doesn't need to follow, Zimmerman says "OK" and seems from his statement at this point he starts to make his way back to SUV when Martin confronts Zimmerman
• Martin may have said something to Zimmerman indicating he meant to cause him harm - "well you do now (have a problem)" ... of course this may or may not be contradicted by the girlfriend's statement of what she heard on cell phone, but far as I know she DID NOT make this statement to police, only to Martin family's attorney

[jmra]

BREAKING NEWS

Seems police have finally released THEIR version of Zimmerman's "version of events" to the Orlando newspaper

http://articles.orlandosentinel.com/201 ... k-teenager" onclick="window.open(this.href);return false;

Police have been reluctant to provided details about all their evidence, but this is what they've disclosed to the Sentinel:

Zimmerman was on his way to the grocery store when he spotted Trayvon walking through his gated community.

Trayvon was visiting his father's fiancée, who lived there. He had been suspended from school in Miami after being found with an empty marijuana baggie. Miami schools have a zero-tolerance policy for drug possession.

Zimmerman called police and reported a suspicious person, describing Trayvon as black, acting strangely and perhaps on drugs.

Zimmerman got out of his SUV to follow Trayvon on foot. When a dispatch employee asked Zimmerman if he was following the 17-year-old, Zimmerman said yes. The dispatcher told Zimmerman he did not need to do that.

There is about a one-minute gap during which police say they're not sure what happened.

Zimmerman told them he lost sight of Trayvon and was walking back to his SUV when Trayvon approached him from the left rear, and they exchanged words.

Trayvon asked Zimmerman if he had a problem. Zimmerman said no and reached for his cell phone, he told police.

Trayvon then said, "Well, you do now" or something similar and punched Zimmerman in the nose.

Zimmerman fell to the ground and Trayvon got on top of him and began slamming his head into the sidewalk, he told police.

Zimmerman began yelling for help.

Several witnesses heard those cries, and there's been a dispute about from whom they came: Zimmerman or Trayvon.

Lawyers for Trayvon's family say it was Trayvon, but police say their evidence indicates it was Zimmerman.

One witnesses, who has since talked to local television news reporters, told police he saw Zimmerman on the ground with Trayvon on top, pounding him and was unequivocal that it was Zimmerman who was crying for help.

Zimmerman then shot Trayvon once in the chest from very close range, according to authorities.

When police arrived less than two minutes later, Zimmerman was bleeding from the nose, had a swollen lip and had bloody lacerations to the back of his head.

The above seems to raise a lot of questions about the ASSUMPTIONS many have made about Zimmerman's actions. According to this version of events (and understanding it is merely another version, but is the one originally believed by police based on all the evidence they gathered initially) ...

• Zimmerman was not "patrolling" for a Neighborhood Watch program - he was on his way to the grocery store when he noticed Martin
• Zimmerman did not necessarily "follow" Martin from outside his vehicle for very long, if at all. He gets out of vehicle while on 911 call, dispatcher tells him he doesn't need to follow, Zimmerman says "OK" and seems from his statement at this point he starts to make his way back to SUV when Martin confronts Zimmerman
• Martin may have said something to Zimmerman indicating he meant to cause him harm - "well you do now (have a problem)" ... of course this may or may not be contradicted by the girlfriend's statement of what she heard on cell phone, but far as I know she DID NOT make this statement to police, only to Martin family's attorney

If this turns out to be a true account then a lot of people will be consuming crow. But...I feel my post from early in this thread still applies;
"This is like trying to write a review of a 2 hour movie after watching a 60 second trailer. You can speculate all you want, but until all of the evidence is collected and analyzed it is nothing more than a guessing game. As others have stated, the real story may never be told."