03Lightningrocks wrote:Glad we agree that rent a cops haven't the training to be running around with loaded guns playing batman.
How to use a weapon? sure your likely right.. WHEN to use a weapon? The laws behind such use, You are off track as I understand it.. a TX LEO will get much more training on when, if, how , to use lawful deadly force.Grog wrote:03Lightningrocks wrote:Glad we agree that rent a cops haven't the training to be running around with loaded guns playing batman.
Why do you have such an issue with security officers? Police officers receive more hours of training in many subjects, but do not ever make believe that they receive a heck of a lot more than armed security does in the actual use of firearms.
Seriously? --an area legitimately open to others? The dog was in her yard --PRIVATE PROPERTY. My yard is not "legitimately open to others." You come in MY yard and threaten my dog, you better be prepared for the consequences. You come in my yard and grab my wife and you're not a LEO, my gun is coming out. MY dog has a RIGHT to growl and bark at strangers on MY property. You don't like it, you'd better get off my property in a hurry.threoh8 wrote:Not enough information, and what we have is apparently from the dog owners and the neighbors. The guard and company may be lawyering up and holding their tongues. Assuming the statements we have so far are accurate (BIG assumption), this seems to be the sequence:
Guard on patrol sees something unusual.
Guard knocks on door to inquire.
Homeowner answers.
Dog comes out.
(What happens here? How did the "gentle giant" behave?)
Guard (possibly in fear of dog) grabs homeowner.
Dog barks.
Guard shoots dog.
Grabbing a person as a shield is pretty bad form, but so is "loosing the hounds" in an area legitimately open to others. Either could be viewed as escalating the situation.
I'll reserve judgement, except to say that it's a sad story.
When I was in costruction we had a temp service that we were required to use that supplied everything from security to day laborers.drjoker wrote:The problem with rent a cops is that these security companies are run by cheap, stingy corporations that only pay minimum wage. .
All dogs are protective, and territorial, under the right circumstances. However, you seem to be suggesting the dog was normally aggressive, in the sense that it would be perceived as a danger to strangers. That does not fit the facts of this case. The dog is not an aggressive breed. The dog ran out and got in the flower bed. This guard apparently has an abnormal fear of dogs, and was afraid merely at the presence of the dog. We had a pizza delivery guy who would stand at the curb because we answered the door with our Great Dane. My dog never barked at him, never growled, never lunged, never did anything even remotely threatening. This guy was afraid just because he was a big dog, period. He got used to it eventually, and now he comes to the door and pets the dog. But sweet as my dog is normally, had this guy grabbed me or my wife, my dog would quickly ramp up to scary.Rex B wrote:I think the point is that it's fairly normal for strangers to walk onto your property, up to the front door and ring the doorbell.
Whether it's a solicitor, or a neighbor, or a girl scout selling cookies, it's normally no cause for alarm in a decent neighborhood. And if you have an aggressive/protective dog, you take care not to open the outer door until you know the caller and have the animal under control.
Yes, the security guy was very wrong and should pay a price.
But the homeowner is not entirely without fault in the matter. She should have controlled her animal.
I guess it's because I dont live in the city, never have, never will.. did not as a kid,, something in "town" but not city... It is not normal for strangers to wander on to my property.. in fact they would need to wander over a 4.5' fence, or gate, walk 320 feet to even get to the door... and two very upset dogs would have met them by foot 10....I concede the part where it may be normal in some places folks live, like anyplace that has roving security guards (isn't that called jail or prison?? lol)Rex B wrote:I think the point is that it's fairly normal for strangers to walk onto your property, up to the front door and ring the doorbell.
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There is no evidence yet of any abnormal fear of dogs. Some degree of wariness of large canines (this one bred for hunting, by the way) is not abnormal. It's healthy. We don't know exactly what happened at the door between the dog exiting and the "grab", nor do we know about the guard's relationship with or attitude toward dogs.VMI77 wrote:The dog is not an aggressive breed. The dog ran out and got in the flower bed. This guard apparently has an abnormal fear of dogs, and was afraid merely at the presence of the dog.
As a contractor with the HOA in a gated community, he probably had authority - and responsibility - to be there on the porch. In other words, the contract with the HOA was likely, in effect, an invitation to be where he was.VMI77 wrote:My point is that this guard is 100% responsible for what happened. He entered private property without an invitation.
MoJo wrote:I will not live where there is a Homeowner Nazi Association. Rent-a-cops should only be unarmed watchmen. The amount of training an armed security guard receives is minuscule compared to what a sworn TECLOSE certified LEO has. If the Homeowner Nazi Association wants armed security hire off-duty-cops. The local police has a COP (citizens on patrol) program. They cannot have any type of weapon when they are on patrol. They have a marked car, a uniform shirt, police band walkie talkie, flash light and they are to call the real police if they encounter any trouble.
edit: I would be making arrangements with a lawyer to sue the pants off the homeowner's association, the security company and the rent-a-cop.
This would be because the average security guard isn't smart enough to know he has to dump the dirt off the shovel before going in to get another scoop.steveincowtown wrote:When I was in costruction we had a temp service that we were required to use that supplied everything from security to day laborers.drjoker wrote:The problem with rent a cops is that these security companies are run by cheap, stingy corporations that only pay minimum wage. .
A guy that hat the skill set to "shovel dirt" cost me $13/ Hour
A secutiry guard that was trained/armed cost me $11.75/ Hour
I asked our Head Super for the area if it would be ok if I used armed guards to shovel dirt, to keep my cost in check.
...it didn't work out.
In my part of the world, goofballs don't shoot dogs on the street, much less in our front yards. I live in Plano...BTW...the exact neighborhood you describe. If anything, there is less chance some nut is going to start flipping out and firing rounds at my dog. That Barney Fife would be full of holes in my front yard with that same manuever!Rex B wrote:Irrelevant.
My only point is this is a typical suburban, nice neighborhood, sidewalks etc. Gated community, with paid security?
If you are in such a neighborhood, your front yard is not fenced, dogs don't roam free, and you have a nice inviting walkway up to the front door "Welcome" mat, and a doorbell to press.
It's not a Red Alert event if someone walks up to your door. Maybe a yellow at best. And if you have pets, you take care they don't slip past you and get out when you open the door.
Everyone knows the rules are entirely different when you are visiting a rural house. Dogs run free, you don't approach the door unless you are seen and acknowledged, or you call from the vehicle before getting out. etc. This isn't that kind of neighborhood
No confrontation incident is 100% one-sided, except maybe in the movies.
No question we all would protect our family and property with whatever means are available to us.
If you are going to quote me, your response should relate to what i said. It does not.03Lightningrocks wrote:
In my part of the world, goofballs don't shoot dogs on the street, much less in our front yards. I live in Plano...BTW...the exact neighborhood you describe. If anything, there is less chance some nut is going to start flipping out and firing rounds at my dog. That Barney Fife would be full of holes in my front yard with that same manuever!
True in a way, depending on what you consider evidence. It's supposition on my part based on experience with dogs and people --like the guy I described, and the description of events in the media. In particular, I've got a big dog, and I've seen various people react to him. Every single person who has exhibited fear has told me they are afraid of dogs or afraid of big dogs. Wariness of any dog you don't know is smart but fear and caution are not the same thing. Still, many are wary, but most people DON'T exhibit fear, so in my view, if most people encountering him don't exhibit fear, then fear is an abnormal reaction. Labs are also bred for hunting and they're one of the most gentle breeds around. Absent abnormal behavior on the part of the dog, anyone afraid of a Lab has an abnormal fear of dogs. I've encountered numerous dogs of this breed that he shot and I've not seen a single one that was scary or inspired fear. I don't pull out my gun when in proximity to a dog, no matter what the size, just because he's growling or barking. I certainly wouldn't walk onto someone else's property and draw my gun on their dog because I'd expect that might lead to being shot by the property owner.threoh8 wrote: There is no evidence yet of any abnormal fear of dogs. Some degree of wariness of large canines (this one bred for hunting, by the way) is not abnormal. It's healthy. We don't know exactly what happened at the door between the dog exiting and the "grab", nor do we know about the guard's relationship with or attitude toward dogs.
Even the police have constraints that apply when they're on private property. I can't argue the HOA for this place because I have no idea what it says. However, I doubt it grants a blanket invitation. I highly doubt, for instance, that under color of the HOA, the guard can come sit on the porch whenever he wants, or wash his car with your garden hose. I'm pretty sure the HOA doesn't give him the authority to shoot people's dogs on their own property. What if this guy "thought" he saw something in the backyard, entered through a closed gate, encountered a barking dog, and shot it?threoh8 wrote:As a contractor with the HOA in a gated community, he probably had authority - and responsibility - to be there on the porch. In other words, the contract with the HOA was likely, in effect, an invitation to be where he was.
Most Americans, probably including most of the people on this board, live where various people have legitimate reasons to come and knock on the door. Police, mail carriers, landlords, the guy who cuts the lawn, census takers, utilities workers, etc.
Point taken, however I intended a rhetorical "you," not a specific you --as in "you" don't tug on superman's cape, "you' don't spit into the wind, etc.threoh8 wrote:Suggestion for a more civil discussion: Take the "you" out of the hypothetical situations, especially those involving violence.
