An Idea for a Kalashnikov Pistol

[pbwalker]

Just saying...

A Kel-tec Sub 2000 will satisfy all your requirments for about $350.

Except for the "round effective out to 100 yards part".

How so?

It is a pistol round...is it lethal at 100yds? Yes. Does it have the same lethality that a rifle round has at 100yds? NO. A .22lr is lethal at 100yds if placed right, doesn't mean I want to defend a war zone of zombies with it

Agreed, but that's a big difference than saying it is not effective. A lethal hit is a lethal hit.

[RECIT]

Just saying...

A Kel-tec Sub 2000 will satisfy all your requirments for about $350.

Except for the "round effective out to 100 yards part".

How so?

It is a pistol round...is it lethal at 100yds? Yes. Does it have the same lethality that a rifle round has at 100yds? NO. A .22lr is lethal at 100yds if placed right, doesn't mean I want to defend a war zone of zombies with it

Agreed, but that's a big difference than saying it is not effective. A lethal hit is a lethal hit.

But we were not talking bout just a lethal hit, a sling shot can make a lethal hit at 100yds with the right angle and load. Does not make it effective and that is what was stated.

[pbwalker]

But we were not talking bout just a lethal hit, a sling shot can make a lethal hit at 100yds with the right angle and load. Does not make it effective and that is what was stated.

I just mentioned the lethality aspect because you brought it up in your reply. But if the threat has ceased to be a threat, I would say that whatever I shot was effective. Is it ideal, no. But to discount it as ineffective is wrong IMO.

ef·fec·tive /iˈfektiv/
Adjective: Successful in producing a desired or intended result.

I think of it like this. If there is something I need to hit with a sledgehammer, a hammer *may* work if I hit it just right. Not ideal, but could be effective.

/I have a feeling we're saying the same thing, just with different words.

[Carry-a-Kimber]

A pistol round could be effetive at 100 yards; a rifle round is effective at 100 yards.

[pbwalker]

A pistol round could be effetive at 100 yards; a rifle round is effective at 100 yards.

Now we're getting in to the shooter, which is a totally different argument. I'll still argue that a pistol round, in and of itself, is effective at 100 yards.

Would you say a 9mm Uzi is not effective at 100 yards?

Federal 9mm 124 grain Hydra-Shock JHPVelocity at:

0 yards 1120 fps
25 yards 1070 fps
50 yard 1028 fps
75 yards 993 fps
100 yards 961 fps

Energy ( ft. lbs.)
0 yards: 345 ft lbs
25 yards: 316 ft lbs
50 yards: 291 ft lbs
75 yards: 271 ft lbs
100 yards: 255 ft lbs

Trajectory/ Drop:
25 yards: zero'd
50 yards: 1.0"
75 yards: 4.0"
100 yards: 9.3"


Federal .40 S&W 165 grain Hydra-Shock JHP:

Velocity at:
0 yards 980 fps
25 yards 950 fps
50 yard 924 fps
75 yards 899 fps
100 yards 876 fps

Energy ( ft. lbs.)
0 yards: 352 ft lbs
25 yards: 331 ft lbs
50 yards: 312 ft lbs
75 yards: 296 ft lbs
100 yards: 281 ft lbs

Trajectory/ Drop:
25 yards: zero'd
50 yards: 1.5"
75 yards: 5.6"
100 yards: 12.3"

Even the 45ACP is pushing 354 ft lbs @ 100 yards.

[atxtj]

My Draco is waiting on the stamp to come back from the ATF. It's decent enough out to 50 yards without a stock, using the Israeli sling method, but to make it an effective weapon, I really thought it needed a stock. So I ponied up for a tax stamp. And a reflex sight, because the sight radius is terrible! once completed, it's going to be a hell of a rifle!

[MadMonkey]

Would you say a 9mm Uzi is not effective at 100 yards?

I would say it is not. Even the Uzi carbine's effectiveness at that range is marginal...

You can't really argue the S2K in 9mm against a Draco or similar rifle-caliber weapon at 100 yards.

Assuming equal training on both platforms, you're just not going to make a 9mm round as powerful as a rifle round at that range. Handgun rounds are bad enough at our regular self defense distances.

[EricB]

Here's a pic of mine. I have no ideas of any kind of "carrying" - it's just a fun piece to shoot.
Also handy for Zombies, I guess!

[pbwalker]

Would you say a 9mm Uzi is not effective at 100 yards?

I would say it is not. Even the Uzi carbine's effectiveness at that range is marginal...

You can't really argue the S2K in 9mm against a Draco or similar rifle-caliber weapon at 100 yards.

Assuming equal training on both platforms, you're just not going to make a 9mm round as powerful as a rifle round at that range. Handgun rounds are bad enough at our regular self defense distances.

I don't recall anyone saying the 9mm is as powerful as a rifle round. We're judging its effectiveness. There was a post that said it was not effective, and I disagree. I say it is effective. Not ideal, but effective.

[MadMonkey]

I don't recall anyone saying the 9mm is as powerful as a rifle round. We're judging its effectiveness. There was a post that said it was not effective, and I disagree. I say it is effective. Not ideal, but effective.

Um... okay then. Nevermind.

[pbwalker]

I don't recall anyone saying the 9mm is as powerful as a rifle round. We're judging its effectiveness. There was a post that said it was not effective, and I disagree. I say it is effective. Not ideal, but effective.

Um... okay then. Nevermind.

No other thoughts on the subject?

[gringo pistolero]

I don't recall anyone saying the 9mm is as powerful as a rifle round. We're judging its effectiveness. There was a post that said it was not effective, and I disagree. I say it is effective. Not ideal, but effective.

Um... okay then. Nevermind.

No other thoughts on the subject?

What else is there to say? If somebody wants to argue .380 is effective there's not much to be gained by discussing energy, penetration, or other objective measurements. It can be effective if you're lucky but I don't like the odds.

[atxtj]

I don't recall anyone saying the 9mm is as powerful as a rifle round. We're judging its effectiveness. There was a post that said it was not effective, and I disagree. I say it is effective. Not ideal, but effective.

Um... okay then. Nevermind.

No other thoughts on the subject?

I thought this thread was about a rifle caliber pistol, not the other way round.

[pbwalker]

I don't recall anyone saying the 9mm is as powerful as a rifle round. We're judging its effectiveness. There was a post that said it was not effective, and I disagree. I say it is effective. Not ideal, but effective.

Um... okay then. Nevermind.

No other thoughts on the subject?

What else is there to say? If somebody wants to argue .380 is effective there's not much to be gained by discussing energy, penetration, or other objective measurements. It can be effective if you're lucky but I don't like the odds.

Why not discuss it though? Why just give up and walk away?

I've provided numbers in a previous post, and here is a report from G&A. http://www.handgunsmag.com/2010/09/24/t ... ot_022305/. Like you said, and I've said numerous times, it is not ideal. But is it effective? Absolutely.

Obviously I'm not going to change minds even with data (slight side point, no one has provided any information stating it as ineffective) so I will just politely bow out...you know what they say about arguing on the internet.

[tbrown]

I don't recall anyone saying the 9mm is as powerful as a rifle round. We're judging its effectiveness. There was a post that said it was not effective, and I disagree. I say it is effective. Not ideal, but effective.

Um... okay then. Nevermind.

No other thoughts on the subject?

I thought this thread was about a rifle caliber pistol, not the other way round.

How much velocity do the AK pistols give up compared to their rifle length counterparts? How much additional noise and flash do they generate? Those were the main considerations why I never got an AR pistol. Another is the buffer tube makes it extend almost as far back as a short-stock rifle AR, but the AK pistols don't seem to have that problem.