Introduction and a question

[S&Wgrl]

Hi, I'm new to the forum and to firearm ownership. I bought a Smith & Wesson 9mm Sigma but that won't me my EDC. I've been lurking for a few weeks though. Kudos for an awesome site. I haven't gotten my CHL yet. I'm taking the class tomorrow. I did the online application today and paid for it. Anyway this sign is posted where I work. It has the gun buster sign and says: Firearms are prohibited in this building. LAW (V.C.S ART 4413 29ee) I'm assuming that it's not considered legal notice. My company has a no firearms policy unless you have proper consent. I plan to ask for that as soon as I get my license. Of course if the sign is legal i won't ask. So what say ye? Legal notice or not? Thanks!

[A-R]

Welcome to the forum

Please note I AM NOT A LAWYER and this is NOT legal advice:

The sign you describe would not be legally "effective" notice - need a properly worded/formated PC 30.06 sign OR any oral notice to be effective (and thus prevent you from carrying under threat of a Criminal Trespass charge).

However, if you ask someone with apparent authority over the building (like your boss or some other higher up in your company) and that person simply tells you orally "No, you cannot carry guns here", then that IS effective notice and you would then be prohibited by both law and company policy from ever carrying in the building again until someone with authority changes/overrules/rescinds that notice.

In a nutshell, Don't Ask, Don't Tell is your best bet.

[RPB]

4413 29ee

YES YOU CAN CARRY - Old, incorrect verbiage (4413).
See viewtopic.php?f=53&t=34571#p407475" onclick="window.open(this.href);return false;

Not asking might get you fired if you get found out ... but shouldn't be any arrest/prosecution/conviction
Asking can/might get you Oral notice and then you could be arrested if you carried ... as well as fired

[S&Wgrl]

Thanks. The company after I work leases our corporate offices in that building. We don't own it. I was thinking about pointing out to my boss only that the sign isn't considered legal notice. I would then ask for his written consent to carry -according to our Firearm Policy. I'm HR, I know all about that policy. I don't know if it is going to fly with him or not. Too many bad things can happen. I would feel safer.

[Crossfire]

Wait until after you take your class. Ask all your questions there. Understand that a lot of what is offered is opinion, based on a person's interpretation of the penal code. Not everything is black and white. Then, carefully consider how you want to proceed with your work situation before you approach your boss.

Good luck to you and enjoy your class! Oh, and welcome to the forum!

[MasterOfNone]

Thanks. The company after I work leases our corporate offices in that building. We don't own it. I was thinking about pointing out to my boss only that the sign isn't considered legal notice. I would then ask for his written consent to carry -according to our Firearm Policy. I'm HR, I know all about that policy. I don't know if it is going to fly with him or not. Too many bad things can happen. I would feel safer.

Never tell a private organization that its sign is not enforceable. That may lead it to post an enforceable sign.

[S&Wgrl]

Never tell a private organization that its sign is not enforceable. That may lead it to post an enforceable sign.[/quote]

Thank you. No worries, I'm not planning on saying anything to the company that we lease the space from. However according to company policy we can carry if we get Executive Management approval. No need to involve the leasing company-their sign isn't up to the 30.06 legal standard.

[S&Wgrl]

Wait until after you take your class. Ask all your questions there. Understand that a lot of what is offered is opinion, based on a person's interpretation of the penal code. Not everything is black and white. Then, carefully consider how you want to proceed with your work situation before you approach your boss.

Good luck to you and enjoy your class! Oh, and welcome to the forum!

Thanks for the tips and the welcome. I took a picture of the sign so I can ask tomorrow. I'm very excited about the class. I've spent a considerable amount of time researching all of this. I'm glad it's class time!

[A-R]

Thanks. The company after I work leases our corporate offices in that building. We don't own it. I was thinking about pointing out to my boss only that the sign isn't considered legal notice. I would then ask for his written consent to carry -according to our Firearm Policy. I'm HR, I know all about that policy. I don't know if it is going to fly with him or not. Too many bad things can happen. I would feel safer.

Never tell a private organization that its sign is not enforceable. That may lead it to post an enforceable sign.

THIS

and think very carefully before asking permission to carry - because an oral refusal of permission (as I indicated in my first response) such as them simply saying "No, you can't carry a gun in here" IS effective notice under PC 30.06 and prohibits you LEGALLY from carrying regardless of the legality/validity/effectiveness of any signs - their oral notification to you supersedes everything else and prohibits you personally from carrying.

Whether your company owns or leases the building is likely not important in this case - they have the "authority" to control who accesses the portion of the premises they control.

As Crossfire said, this is all grey/open to interpretation area ... tread carefully.

In closing I DO NOT recommend carrying in violation of company policy if you want/need your job. But you could technically carry LEGALLY at this point (in my non-legal opinion). Once you ask permission and they say no, you can no longer even carry legally, much less within company policy.

[chasfm11]

Please post if you are given permission to carry. Personally, I would doubt that you will get it. You might want to ask your question of management as a hypothetical one. "I'm thinking about getting a concealed handgun license. If I did that, would I be allowed to carry in company space?"

The company that I just left had a very clear policy. No guns ever on any part of anything that even remotely involved that company. I was thrilled about the recent Texas parking lot bill but fortunately, I rarely had to go anywhere near a company office to work.

[A-R]

Please post if you are given permission to carry. Personally, I would doubt that you will get it. You might want to ask your question of management as a hypothetical one. "I'm thinking about getting a concealed handgun license. If I did that, would I be allowed to carry in company space?"

again, IANAL and this ain't legal advice, but I'd be very careful with "hypothetical" questions ... seems to my non-lawyer mind that a definitive "NO" even to a "hypothetical" question is very likely still "effective notice" under PC 30.06 ... or at least would certainly be construed as such by the owner/management who gave you that answer.

[Jumping Frog]

Thanks. The company after I work leases our corporate offices in that building. We don't own it. I was thinking about pointing out to my boss only that the sign isn't considered legal notice. I would then ask for his written consent to carry -according to our Firearm Policy. I'm HR, I know all about that policy. I don't know if it is going to fly with him or not. Too many bad things can happen. I would feel safer.

You may be HR, but I've been a business executive for over 30 years and have had times when HR reported to me, and other times when the head of HR was one of my peers. I have certainly been in business long enough to be intimately familiar with how most HR types think. I'll pass on a set of rules originally written by a 30+ year employee relations executive and knows how corporate America works. His screen name is "Tweed Ring". I call them "Tweed's Rules". You can choose to ignore the advice or take it.

Keep your personal business, all your personal business, to yourself.

Here's an example:

One weekend, I spent most of my time training and certifying police officers in the use of the side handle baton. I happened to mention this fact in passing during my Monday morning staff meeting at an employer which was very anti-gun. Before the day ended, my boss called me to his office as he was concerned to learn that I was hosting a militia movement. People say and do crazy things at work.

And, I was one of those HR types. Tweed's rules vis-a-vis any employment situation, carefully developed after 30+ years in HR go as follows:

1. ) I do not own a gun, and I shall never talk to my co-workers about guns.

2.) I do not want to own a gun and I shall never talk to my co-workers about guns.

3.) I don't want to talk to anyone who owns a gun, and I shall never talk to my co-workers about guns.

4.) If someone is talking about guns, I shall walk away, and I shall never talk to my co-workers about guns.

5.) My hobbies are very interesting and entertaining, but, I shall never talk to my co-workers about guns.

6.) The hobbies of my significant other, (if any) and children (if any) are very interesting and entertaining and I shall never talk to my co-workers about guns.

I think anyone reading this will see a trend developing.

This advice is free.

I worked in a place that was pro-gun, and I worked in a place that was very anti-gun. In any anti-gun place, I can assure you that once an employee makes a comment about guns, it will eventually be filtered back to HR with a strong recommendation to "do something."

I find there are many people who either work for a family business or small company that they already know it is firearms-friendly, and they will object to these rules saying they aren't needed. However, these rules are aimed at workplaces large enough to have an organized HR department with a set of workplace policies in place. I'd never mention guns at work. I learned the hard way in a previous job after innocent conversation with a co-worker was twisted by an overhearing anti-gunner and eventually escalated into a totally bogus "final warning notice".

Simply keep your mouth shut.

[chasfm11]

Please post if you are given permission to carry. Personally, I would doubt that you will get it. You might want to ask your question of management as a hypothetical one. "I'm thinking about getting a concealed handgun license. If I did that, would I be allowed to carry in company space?"

again, IANAL and this ain't legal advice, but I'd be very careful with "hypothetical" questions ... seems to my non-lawyer mind that a definitive "NO" even to a "hypothetical" question is very likely still "effective notice" under PC 30.06 ... or at least would certainly be construed as such by the owner/management who gave you that answer.

Agreed but I was trying to avoid the kind of thing that Jumping Frog posted in the post following yours. Being given notice not to be able to carry is one thing but being persecuted in your job because of their knowledge that you have already taken part in some gun related activity in another whole. With the hypothetical situation, you at least have the out that you heard their message loud and clear (even if you did choose to ignore it.)

I agree that the best course of action is to not say a word if you are in doubt. Of course, that leaves you open to dismissal if you ever are discovered and your interpretation was wrong. Some people can live with that, others cannot.

[S&Wgrl]

I will let y'all know what happens. Our company policy is that you may have a firearm with permission from Executive Management. I'm not risking my job to carry, I will go through the proper procedure. The EM is very gun friendly. They both have them, probably carry, and we talk about them from time to time. I'm not worried about persecution there. I answer directly to EM so no one else will even know that I'm asking. My main concern when i ask EM was to address the legalities of the sign on the building where we lease corporate office space. After my CHL class yesterday, I feel comfortable enough to let Executive Management know that it's not considered the correct legal sign. There will be no need to even discuss anything with coworkers, or the building management.

[jmra]

Given the fact that you are in HR, do you participate or have responsibility in updating/modifing the employee handbook? If so, I think that this is a very approachable subject without exposing yourself to any scrutiny whatsoever. Simply approach the EM and state that you noticed in the handbook that employees are allowed to carry with consent from management. Then simply ask if this is something that is actually practiced. If the answer is yes then a door has been opened to have a discussion. If the answer is no, then this is obviously a trap to identify those who would desire to obtain consent so that they out themselves to management.
Of course if the answer is no, you only asked to see if language in the handbook needed to be updated. I would argue that if the answer is no, you would be doing your fellow coworkers a great service by getting the language changed so that they do not fall into a trap intentionally or unintentionally set by current or possibly past management.